The Many Negative Effects of Student Lines
02-03-2024, 01:07 PM
#1
Gets Weekends Off
Thread Starter
Joined APC: Jul 2007
Position: Gear Monkey
Posts: 3,191
The Many Negative Effects of Student Lines
As stated in recent MEC & NC communications, the company has still not agreed to eliminate the new “Student Lines” which were, unfortunately, negotiated into our failed TA1.0.
While the union’s initial position was that these new “Student Lines” would only affect a few select, senior First Officers, the union's understanding and position has (supposedly) changed.
A group of pilots collected the specific data below and presented it to the union leadership.
It’s shared here to help educate all pilots, so we may collectively understand the many negative primary, secondary and tertiary, effects on ALL First Officers in each fleet.
The first, critical step, is to understand the number of LCAs in each fleet
As of mid December 2023:
B757 – 57
B767 – 54
B777 – 57
A300 – 30
MD11 – 30
Total LCA’s = 228
(Note: 777 may be as many as 30 LCAs undermanned based of scheduled fleet growth & training. This would increase total LCAs to 258)
In order to understand the full impact of blocking off 40% of all LCA hard lines awarded, we must first understand and track the total number of LCAs being awarded hard lines in each bid back.
For example, in the MEM 757 bid pack for September 2023 there were 45 active LCAs total. 5 of those were in a PAY ONLY status, leaving 40 LCA's eligible to bid a hard line. While we do not know what each LCA bid, we know 36 were awarded hard lines, while 4 were awarded Reserve or Secondary Lines.
Under the proposed Student Line metric, the company could have identified 40% of those 36 awarded hard lines as Student Lines. 36 x .40 = 14.4 lines. Thus, 14 FOs would have been denied the lines they wanted to fly, and would have been directed to the View/Add Window to rebuild their month.
Assuming an AVG BLG of 74 hours, those 14 pilots would then be choosing the best 1,036 hours worth of trips they could obtain in the View/Add window. These hours equate to 172 single-day, 6 hr trips - a very significant number of the very best trips before the Secondary Line process even started.
The #1 VTO would effectively become the #15 VTO, and every subsequent VTO would fall back an equal amount. The bottom VTOs would have a far lower chance of getting actual trips, and would most likely receive more R days.
Assuming the number of pilots needed on Reserve is unaffected by the number of Student Lines, the natural next effect is the total number of FOs needed is reduced.
Let’s now extrapolate this 757 example across all fleets.
Traditionally, about 15% of LCA’s are “Pay Only” each month due to the requirement to administer line checks. Additionally, 10-15% of LCAs bid VTO or Reserve. Thus, in any given bid month 25-30% of the LCAs do not bid hard lines.
This yields 70-75% of LCAs bidding and being awarded hard lines, of which 40% could be designated “Student Lines”. This means, 28%-30% of all LCAs in each fleet would have “Student Lines’.
To see the first order effects we multiply # of LCAs in each fleet x 30%:
B757 – 57 LCAs x .30 = 17 lines
B767 – 54 LCAs x .30 = 16 lines
B777 – 57 LCAs x .30 = 17 lines
A300 – 30 LCAs x .30 = 9 lines
MD11 – 30 x .30 = 9 lines
Total LCA’s = 239 x .30 = 68 lines
Of course, this is only the first order effect. There are additional second and third order effects, which are equally critical. Every FO in the bid pack will be affected!
Allowing designated “Student Lines” WILL…
- Lower the total # of hard lines available to bid
- Decrease the chance of EVERY first officer from holding their preferred line
- Increase the # of pilots picking up the trips in the View/Add window
- Decrease the # of trips available to ALL Secondary Line holders
- Increase the chance Secondary Line holders are assigned R-days due to less trips
- Increase Reserve Utilization when the LCA is not assigned a student, and the seat must be filled
- Decreasing the overall need for FOs due to increased efficiency
In conclusion, agreeing to a scheduling concession, which reduces choice, seniority, quality of life, increases reserve utilization AND reduces the number of FOs in each fleet/domicile, is certainly NOT a core mission of ALPA, and shouldn’t ever be an acceptable negotiation chip.
Hopefully, our union representatives remain steadfast in removing Student Lines from any future TA.
In Transparency, Integrity and Unity (for Everyone),
DLax
While the union’s initial position was that these new “Student Lines” would only affect a few select, senior First Officers, the union's understanding and position has (supposedly) changed.
A group of pilots collected the specific data below and presented it to the union leadership.
It’s shared here to help educate all pilots, so we may collectively understand the many negative primary, secondary and tertiary, effects on ALL First Officers in each fleet.
The first, critical step, is to understand the number of LCAs in each fleet
As of mid December 2023:
B757 – 57
B767 – 54
B777 – 57
A300 – 30
MD11 – 30
Total LCA’s = 228
(Note: 777 may be as many as 30 LCAs undermanned based of scheduled fleet growth & training. This would increase total LCAs to 258)
In order to understand the full impact of blocking off 40% of all LCA hard lines awarded, we must first understand and track the total number of LCAs being awarded hard lines in each bid back.
For example, in the MEM 757 bid pack for September 2023 there were 45 active LCAs total. 5 of those were in a PAY ONLY status, leaving 40 LCA's eligible to bid a hard line. While we do not know what each LCA bid, we know 36 were awarded hard lines, while 4 were awarded Reserve or Secondary Lines.
Under the proposed Student Line metric, the company could have identified 40% of those 36 awarded hard lines as Student Lines. 36 x .40 = 14.4 lines. Thus, 14 FOs would have been denied the lines they wanted to fly, and would have been directed to the View/Add Window to rebuild their month.
Assuming an AVG BLG of 74 hours, those 14 pilots would then be choosing the best 1,036 hours worth of trips they could obtain in the View/Add window. These hours equate to 172 single-day, 6 hr trips - a very significant number of the very best trips before the Secondary Line process even started.
The #1 VTO would effectively become the #15 VTO, and every subsequent VTO would fall back an equal amount. The bottom VTOs would have a far lower chance of getting actual trips, and would most likely receive more R days.
Assuming the number of pilots needed on Reserve is unaffected by the number of Student Lines, the natural next effect is the total number of FOs needed is reduced.
Let’s now extrapolate this 757 example across all fleets.
Traditionally, about 15% of LCA’s are “Pay Only” each month due to the requirement to administer line checks. Additionally, 10-15% of LCAs bid VTO or Reserve. Thus, in any given bid month 25-30% of the LCAs do not bid hard lines.
This yields 70-75% of LCAs bidding and being awarded hard lines, of which 40% could be designated “Student Lines”. This means, 28%-30% of all LCAs in each fleet would have “Student Lines’.
To see the first order effects we multiply # of LCAs in each fleet x 30%:
B757 – 57 LCAs x .30 = 17 lines
B767 – 54 LCAs x .30 = 16 lines
B777 – 57 LCAs x .30 = 17 lines
A300 – 30 LCAs x .30 = 9 lines
MD11 – 30 x .30 = 9 lines
Total LCA’s = 239 x .30 = 68 lines
Of course, this is only the first order effect. There are additional second and third order effects, which are equally critical. Every FO in the bid pack will be affected!
Allowing designated “Student Lines” WILL…
- Lower the total # of hard lines available to bid
- Decrease the chance of EVERY first officer from holding their preferred line
- Increase the # of pilots picking up the trips in the View/Add window
- Decrease the # of trips available to ALL Secondary Line holders
- Increase the chance Secondary Line holders are assigned R-days due to less trips
- Increase Reserve Utilization when the LCA is not assigned a student, and the seat must be filled
- Decreasing the overall need for FOs due to increased efficiency
In conclusion, agreeing to a scheduling concession, which reduces choice, seniority, quality of life, increases reserve utilization AND reduces the number of FOs in each fleet/domicile, is certainly NOT a core mission of ALPA, and shouldn’t ever be an acceptable negotiation chip.
Hopefully, our union representatives remain steadfast in removing Student Lines from any future TA.
In Transparency, Integrity and Unity (for Everyone),
DLax
02-03-2024, 02:17 PM
#3
Aspiring PSA Captain
Joined APC: Sep 2020
Posts: 824
DLax-
Have you posted this in the SM chat? They will be incensed.
It's perplexing is that the junior vote is the biggest road block but they're hanging on to one of the most egregious concessions that they attempted to foist upon the junior group. It almost seems as if they're not really trying to get a contract done.
(hopefully the sarcasm dripping from this post is obvious, but there are those on here that never seem to get it)
Merle
Have you posted this in the SM chat? They will be incensed.
It's perplexing is that the junior vote is the biggest road block but they're hanging on to one of the most egregious concessions that they attempted to foist upon the junior group. It almost seems as if they're not really trying to get a contract done.
(hopefully the sarcasm dripping from this post is obvious, but there are those on here that never seem to get it)
Merle
02-03-2024, 04:15 PM
#4
On Reserve
Joined APC: Jan 2023
Posts: 11
Not only did TA1 require you to make up those hours, but they tried to sell the 125% as a win. Currently I don't have to fly and still make 100%, but if I choose to fly I make at a minimum 200%. 100% for being bought off the trip plus 100% for flying another trip. Absolutely ridiculous that they even attempted to sell this as a good thing.
02-03-2024, 05:26 PM
#5
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Dec 2023
Posts: 170
I wouldn't want to be one of the first FOs trained on a new fleet. You would get screwed extra hard for a few years in a row.
They keep trying to sneak in stuff like this gradually so that eventually we become the ones begging them for PBS.
Hold the line.
They keep trying to sneak in stuff like this gradually so that eventually we become the ones begging them for PBS.
Hold the line.
02-03-2024, 05:58 PM
#6
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Mar 2006
Position: P-3C
Posts: 982
Idk this seems like a minor change. If open time and XTRA isn’t being manipulated then it’s not so bad to go into view add at 125%. Not to mention no one would complain when the trips were plentiful and picking that up at a premium would be a no brainer. Besides if you don’t want the LCA line avoid them. I don’t think that’s a show stopper on the student lines. Your computations def support your argument but I don’t think it effects enough of the pilot group to push the needle.
-Bubs
-Bubs
02-03-2024, 06:38 PM
#8
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Dec 2023
Posts: 170
Originally Posted by P-3Bubba
Idk this seems like a minor change. If open time and XTRA isn’t being manipulated then it’s not so bad to go into view add at 125%. Not to mention no one would complain when the trips were plentiful and picking that up at a premium would be a no brainer. Besides if you don’t want the LCA line avoid them. I don’t think that’s a show stopper on the student lines. Your computations def support your argument but I don’t think it effects enough of the pilot group to push the needle.
-Bubs
-Bubs
Good job completely disregarding the meat and potatoes of the OP.
02-03-2024, 06:49 PM
#9
Line Holder
Joined APC: Dec 2017
Posts: 31
Originally Posted by P-3Bubba
Idk this seems like a minor change. If open time and XTRA isn’t being manipulated then it’s not so bad to go into view add at 125%. Not to mention no one would complain when the trips were plentiful and picking that up at a premium would be a no brainer. Besides if you don’t want the LCA line avoid them. I don’t think that’s a show stopper on the student lines. Your computations def support your argument but I don’t think it effects enough of the pilot group to push the needle.
-Bubs
-Bubs
Two years in a row the wet least payment has been screwed up by the company - that’s dishonesty.
They lied when they said (pre-vote) the CGN lines would end up in the MEM57 Bidpack. They’re outsourcing everything to ASL.
they tried to cut our deviation banks in half a month early. Mistake? BS
They lied about wanting to “simplify” wet lease payments - online posters have shown TA1 would have reduced the payments by upwards of 90%.
Clearly we are in a situation where FS will no longer take care of his pilots because of his excessive pride in the airline he built. Now the bean counters are in charge and the relationship has turned adversarial. The SM types need to get their heads out of their asses and acknowledge our new reality.
The absolute best thing for us would be for UPS to get a deal first - they don’t have a union as deeply divided as ours. Sad to say, our union just doesn’t have the fight.
02-03-2024, 07:57 PM
#10
Gets Weekends Off
Thread Starter
Joined APC: Jul 2007
Position: Gear Monkey
Posts: 3,191
Originally Posted by P-3Bubba
Idk this seems like a minor change. If open time and XTRA isn’t being manipulated then it’s not so bad to go into view add at 125%. Not to mention no one would complain when the trips were plentiful and picking that up at a premium would be a no brainer. Besides if you don’t want the LCA line avoid them. I don’t think that’s a show stopper on the student lines. Your computations def support your argument but I don’t think it effects enough of the pilot group to push the needle.
-Bubs
-Bubs
Regardless of who gets awarded the Student Lines…
What happens to the total # of lines available for bid in each bid pack?
What happens when senior guys (or anyone) avoid the Student Lines and now bid their next best choice?
What happens to the # and quality of trips in Open Time from which the VTO lines can be built?
When any change decreases the number & quality of trips which everyone in that bidpack can bid upon, it affects EVERYONE in that bid pack - it just ripples through from top to bottom.
VR,
DLax
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