I know - everyone's situation is different. Got it.

For those that gave up some relatively good seniority in the right seat to take that 85%+ WB Capt seat........any regrets or lessons learned worth passing along?

Obviously weighing all the typical issues:

Pros: money (monthly & retirement), making the calls vs living with Capt Waffle, ?

Cons: commuting into a crash pad, sitting reserve, gone for the holidays, lack of schedule flexibility

 

I went from 15% M11F to 90% A11C 4 years ago. Went from DDH international to commuting on us. So lost about 4 days a month. If you are on reserve and do not get used much, you make just a little more than as an FO. If you flew a lot of C/O as FO you will not see much of a pay raise.

I never worked thanksgiving or Christmas until I upgraded. Work everyone since. I had decent VTO but you do not get your Sched until the wed before the next bid month. I was displaced to M11C last June. Really sucked. # 65 VTO a lot of commutes and night hub turns.

So if you are after money and getting holidays off bid the left seat of the 777. If you want to make the decisions and do not mind having a Crashpad and car and quality of life is not as important, go for it!

As you probably know there is a huge difference between being senior in a seat and junior. Between scheduling, types of trips, pay, carry over, bidding vacation and being able to knock out trips verses VTO and only getting vacation week off.

I could go on but only you know what your situation is.

Living in MEM or domicile helps a ton as you can sit reserve and hang out if they are not using you much.

 

I'm going through similar questioning, except for NB.

I cannot get excited about the idea of commuting to a crashpad to sit reserve again, even with the significant increase in $. Night hub-turning is part of the 757 bidpack almost regardless of seniority. So, it's not the actual trips that concern me, but the loss of scheduling flexibility. Specially considering that I don't mind flying a lot by protecting C/O if I'm getting hometown layovers.

You never know when the music will stop playing though, and that does factor into my decision. Definitely a nice "problem" to have.

I'm curious to hear the advice of others as well.

--max8222, thanks for posting a concrete example of how it changed your QOL.

 

Seems to me that you've answered your own question. But as Harry Callahan once asked: "Do you feel lucky CS? Well do you?" Personally, for me it was at a point when I felt I just couldn't stand flying in the right seat any more, regardless of how great the Captain was. At that point, I knew it was time to upgrade. But that was a long time ago, in a galaxy far, far away.

 

Yeah brother, I think my gut says I'll stay put and enjoy the upcoming seniority. As much as I'm feeling very ready for the challenge of the left seat again and everything that comes with it... with a young one at home, the upgrade is just not the priority right now.

 

Quote:

Originally Posted by CloudSailor

I'm curious to hear the advice of others as well.

I crunched some numbers today for a 75% secondary line holding 777 F/O jumping to a 94% MEM MD-11C. I figured the situation based on no carryover (since I can’t hold it) on the 777 and used the typical single departure lines I get, figuring in the average over-8 pay and international override. On the -11 side, I assumed all reserve and that I would typically get RLG and rarely see international override.

I came up with:

777 – Approx. 1050 CH per year ($205.68+$8 override per CH) = About $225,000 per year

11C – Approx. 938 CH per year ($287.31 per CH) = About $270,000 per year

So, a $45,000 pay bump plus about another $3,600/year in the B-fund (I think) as well as the A-fund high-5 issues.

Sounds okay in theory, but some of the details made me think a little bit.

Average days off per month on the 777 will be about 16 which means about 168 work days a year. For the 11C commuting to reserve, 13 days off per month, so about 196 work days a year. 28 more work days as the 11C on reserve.

Based on the yearly salaries above, the disparity in work days required and a little division:
Pay per day for 777 FO is $1336, for the 11C it’s $1374 (so $40 more per day as an 11C)

My conclusions: If the above 777 FO wanted to get to parity with the reserve 11C in pay, he would need get an additional 210 CH for the year. That works out to an extra 17.5 CH per month (or an average of 2-3 extra days of work, depending on the trips/flights, etc).

So, it seems like it comes down to……. is a WB left seat (in a shrinking fleet) worth: commuting to reserve with little to no schedule control, working the maximum days required by the CBA and flying domestic hub turns every month and/or sitting in a crash pad in MEM. Or is a WB 777 right seat (growing fleet/gaining seniority) with the flexibility to work extra or not when it suits you, more schedule control, international flying, minimal hub turns, dozing for dollars, DH trips, RFO good deals worth keeping the throttles on the left side for a few more years.

I think I just answered my own question. I’m not saying the draw of the left seat isn’t a little tempting – I’m just trying to keep a little reality in the equation as I ponder.

Anyone got some corrections, spears to throw or just another perspective?

 

One day you fly a trip and go "...I am not going to endure another trip listening to a politcal diatribe, angst ridden complaint against the company or union, or religious indoctrination program as God is my witness..." 99% of our capts are great, but after a trip with TT or JS or CB (all retired) you say there is no trip worth staying put.

I gave up a waterfront house in Florida, with a hangar and plane nearby and a jetski ready on tbe dock ready to go at any moment to a 950 square foot aparment flat in China (well...Hong Kong) to upgrade.

New jet...new seat...new domicile...and a 6 month school/move/checkout program....instead of 20% as M11F.

It has been worth every single sacrifice. I would have done it 5 years sooner and been happy. I did pass on 757 upgrade, but I was on passover. I'd do HKG or MD11 capt at 100% in a heartbeat. 4 am in the left seat is not nearly as fatiguing as 4 am in the right.

 

OK here is my two cents.

After the Tiger merger I got stuck being a S/O for 7 years on the 8 and the 10. Finally got to the right seat of the 72 and did that for one year and was then able to move over to F/O on the 11 were I flew that for one year. On night while flying back across the pond I asked a very senior Maddog Capt what does it really take to check out on the 11, (which I was no were near holding). His advice to me at that time was to go ahead and upgrade to the left seat of 727 and learn to be a captain. The Maddog will still be here when your ready. The very first postal MOAB came out the next year and instead of gaining seniority on the right seat of the dog I went for it knowing I'd be very junior. Went through the Paris Island 727 captain school and got a crash pad. I had a great time flying and learning to be what I think is a good captain and did that for 4 years in the 80-85%. Four yeas later I bid all the wide bodies we had (no 777 then) and got the Airbus, and me and one of my crash pad buddies were the bottom two captains on the list. Flew a lot of SIBA then on the criss cross trips of Europe. After three years as a Bus captain I moved over to the Maddog again being junior and flew that plane for 7 years slowly moving up in seniority to as high as 30%. Got great lines, holidays off, the vacation I wanted but could not hold international any more except for Mexico. Say what. So I figured I had one more school in me and moved over to the triple at about 70%. Slowly moving up and currently at 50%. I wouldn't have changed a thing.

Speaking of staying super senior, on my last trip I meet an MD11 F/O at The Capt Hook gym who knew me but I didn't know him. I asked him what plane and what seat he was on and he relegated the story that he tried to check out on the dog. Passed all the sims, test, etc, etc, but after IOE the company was not going to give him the keys to the car. He even agreed that had he been a captain on the MD and had a couple of new F/O on a trip it might have been real interesting. I sometimes feel hanging on to seniority for to long might hurt you in the long run. It did this guy. You also get so spoiled being senior that you usually hear someone say I'm not moving over until I can hold this slot at some ridiculous high percentage. News alert, these MOAB take a long time to train out and they don't come that often so you could trap yourself for a long time. Could be a big deal if your trying to make your high five. A fellow captain friend of mine once had a co-pilot that said he should make the same as him because he pushed the same buttons. My friend came back with, you may push the same buttons as I do, but you don't do, what I do. I once was flying an MD trip, Paris to Subic and had a super senior F/O. He made the comment, " do you know how senior I am over you?" I said " not for the next 12 hours". Not trying to be a ******** but while it is a team effort only one guy wears the fourth stripe.

So in conclusion what is my advice
1. I've had a blast being a captain even while being junior but I do acknowledge you do loose some time off. I did have some good times and great roomies while being junior.

2. For me I got in this game to be a captain one day.

3. God forbid, but disability of a captain pays more than the disability of a F/O.

4. You'll max out your 401k faster being a captain.

Lastly each one of us has to do what is best for him and his family. I get that. If that means staying put for a while then so be it. Good luck to each and every one of you on this bid, in whatever direction you choose. It's nice to have the choices.

 

Damn, after reading your post JetJocF14, it really gives me a different perspective. I love flying regardless of the seat, but bottom line it's just more fun from the left seat. It changes the job in a big way. It's like I am trying to convince myself how seniority and everything else will be better as an FO, but in all honesty, it was very exciting to see my name on the 757 captain practice award. The other thing is, the actual training for my seniority range won't be for probably close to 2 years, that's 2 years readier for an upgrade. It definitely helps having a wife that says "whatever you want to do, go for it, we'll make it work".

Thanks for the perspective.

Albie - I totally understand where you're coming from. WB CA living in domicile in the FDA, my airline dream come true.

Adlerdriver - if you're not a CPA on the side, you're wasting some talent . Good luck with your decision as well.

 

If you have a wife and kids, especially small kids, ask yourself is it more important for you (and your family) to be a husband and father or a Captain. Especially so if this choice will require being a commuter. Every month I see the stress on guys trying to get a workable schedule, especially during training, that will minimize the dead days spent due to commuting. I have flown with more than one guy who has delayed upgrading until the kids were out of high school. They wanted to "be there" during a time when things can go wrong fast. The day will come when you & your family will look back on things. Will they remember a dad who was mostly absent from events in their life or a dad who made the choice that being there with them and for them is what mattered most?