ATP Flight Training School
03-19-2007, 09:39 AM
#11
Line Holder
Joined APC: Jan 2007
Position: F-16
Posts: 46
RXS676,
For what it's worth here's my cents.
Flying training like anything else in life is personality driven. Stop by the schools that fit your budget and timeline and see if these are the kind of guys/gals that you wouldn't mind spending your life savings to have them teach you the business and get you that much closer to your flying goals.
I got my ATP and FEW from All ATP's in North Las Vegas a couple of months ago. Not sure if I would recommend this location due to the volume of air traffic in the pattern and airspace.
After 15 years of flying and most of it in fighters, I incorrectly assumed that the level of instruction would be commensurate with that of military UPT. I was wrong about the instruction and also to assume that a civilian business should have conducted themselves in he same manner as the Air Force.
Long story short, there was a retired army tank commander working his 80 hours a month building time and he and I got along just fine. His instruction was fair at best but that’s about what you get from a very junior CFI that knows only the ATP system. Please remember that there is no replacement for lots of time and air under you’re a@&. This is especially true when you are trying to impart wisdom upon a hungry student.
Shop around (just like you're doing) and talk to the instructors. If they seem like cocky pricks or inept instructors then walk (with your fat checkbook). If you do meet some folks that you would enjoy learning from, ask if they will be there a while, at least for your training window. I have kept in touch with a couple of the guys at All ATP (N Las Vegas) and they have had a great deal of turnover.
Whatever you do, whever you go. enjoy your training, make the most out of the cross countries and see some cool places, by all means network while you're there, and study hard.
Best of luck and kick butt,
Tonka
For what it's worth here's my cents.
Flying training like anything else in life is personality driven. Stop by the schools that fit your budget and timeline and see if these are the kind of guys/gals that you wouldn't mind spending your life savings to have them teach you the business and get you that much closer to your flying goals.
I got my ATP and FEW from All ATP's in North Las Vegas a couple of months ago. Not sure if I would recommend this location due to the volume of air traffic in the pattern and airspace.
After 15 years of flying and most of it in fighters, I incorrectly assumed that the level of instruction would be commensurate with that of military UPT. I was wrong about the instruction and also to assume that a civilian business should have conducted themselves in he same manner as the Air Force.
Long story short, there was a retired army tank commander working his 80 hours a month building time and he and I got along just fine. His instruction was fair at best but that’s about what you get from a very junior CFI that knows only the ATP system. Please remember that there is no replacement for lots of time and air under you’re a@&. This is especially true when you are trying to impart wisdom upon a hungry student.
Shop around (just like you're doing) and talk to the instructors. If they seem like cocky pricks or inept instructors then walk (with your fat checkbook). If you do meet some folks that you would enjoy learning from, ask if they will be there a while, at least for your training window. I have kept in touch with a couple of the guys at All ATP (N Las Vegas) and they have had a great deal of turnover.
Whatever you do, whever you go. enjoy your training, make the most out of the cross countries and see some cool places, by all means network while you're there, and study hard.
Best of luck and kick butt,
Tonka
03-19-2007, 10:45 AM
#12
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Feb 2007
Posts: 105
I'm not QUITE so cynical as to think that flight training providers are just out for my money. I certainly am suspicious of programs whose cost seems higher than comparable programs at other schools, but in the case of ATP, the cost is reasonably similar to comparable training at the local FBOs (in Southern California). I am a little put-off by the slick marketing and boastful claims, but, as noted, they are a business.
Military training is certainly the best way to start a flying career, but is moot in the case of a 30-year-old with 20/500 uncorrected vision. I think you have to accept that, in the case of civilian flight training, your instructor will be a non-career flight instructor who is just building time to go to the airlines and who will prepare you for the minimum standards of the FAA practical tests. For all the tsk, tsking on these forums about how ideal training would be otherwise, such training doesn't exist in the real world.
Back to the ATP, I have essentially decided that the 90-day accelerated program is not for me. Being available seven days a week, all day, is just not reasonable, and I don't believe that training on a modified full-time schedule, where I allow myself occaisional weekends off, will have a significant impact on my career long-term. With all these concerns about overworked instructors and scheduling priority, and I concerned, however, that I'll spend a lot of time sitting around, available to train but waiting for airplane and instructor availability. Can't seem to get any assurances or information about that from anyone.
Military training is certainly the best way to start a flying career, but is moot in the case of a 30-year-old with 20/500 uncorrected vision. I think you have to accept that, in the case of civilian flight training, your instructor will be a non-career flight instructor who is just building time to go to the airlines and who will prepare you for the minimum standards of the FAA practical tests. For all the tsk, tsking on these forums about how ideal training would be otherwise, such training doesn't exist in the real world.
Back to the ATP, I have essentially decided that the 90-day accelerated program is not for me. Being available seven days a week, all day, is just not reasonable, and I don't believe that training on a modified full-time schedule, where I allow myself occaisional weekends off, will have a significant impact on my career long-term. With all these concerns about overworked instructors and scheduling priority, and I concerned, however, that I'll spend a lot of time sitting around, available to train but waiting for airplane and instructor availability. Can't seem to get any assurances or information about that from anyone.
03-19-2007, 11:27 AM
#13
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Jul 2005
Posts: 2,242
I just got off the phone with a ATP rep. They definately are selling a product and want to get people in to the system and out the other end and hired w/ an airline ASAP.
What other career are you in that you can't leave early?
In the past few days I've spent a good bit of time with the reps asking some pointed questions about their training....
1. Its expensive compared to local FBO.
2. Little risk if you're flexible with scheduling - you'll get he flights in and get out on schedule just be prepared and study a lot during downtimes.
3. The use checklists for everything and the same time on very similar flight plans / profiles during the training. Very standard from one location to the next - guess this is a one size fits all type of training.
4. You have to do a lot of self - study.
5. You have to be flexible with scheduling.
6. You have to be open minded about people you'll be sharing a plane with and instructors your flying with for 120 days (90 if you just get the pro pilot course).
7. CFI hiring is a lot more about personality , non-trouble maker while a student.
8. The few that don't make it do so for not being prepared and ready to learn / fly.
Again, no numbers / hard facts - a lot of sales type talk but you can't blame the guys/gals working. They are only doing what their being told to do from their bosses...
-LAFF
What other career are you in that you can't leave early?
In the past few days I've spent a good bit of time with the reps asking some pointed questions about their training....
1. Its expensive compared to local FBO.
2. Little risk if you're flexible with scheduling - you'll get he flights in and get out on schedule just be prepared and study a lot during downtimes.
3. The use checklists for everything and the same time on very similar flight plans / profiles during the training. Very standard from one location to the next - guess this is a one size fits all type of training.
4. You have to do a lot of self - study.
5. You have to be flexible with scheduling.
6. You have to be open minded about people you'll be sharing a plane with and instructors your flying with for 120 days (90 if you just get the pro pilot course).
7. CFI hiring is a lot more about personality , non-trouble maker while a student.
8. The few that don't make it do so for not being prepared and ready to learn / fly.
Again, no numbers / hard facts - a lot of sales type talk but you can't blame the guys/gals working. They are only doing what their being told to do from their bosses...
-LAFF
03-19-2007, 11:29 AM
#14
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Jul 2005
Posts: 2,242
Originally Posted by RXS676
I'm not QUITE so cynical as to think that flight training providers are just out for my money. I certainly am suspicious of programs whose cost seems higher than comparable programs at other schools, but in the case of ATP, the cost is reasonably similar to comparable training at the local FBOs (in Southern California). I am a little put-off by the slick marketing and boastful claims, but, as noted, they are a business.
Military training is certainly the best way to start a flying career, but is moot in the case of a 30-year-old with 20/500 uncorrected vision. I think you have to accept that, in the case of civilian flight training, your instructor will be a non-career flight instructor who is just building time to go to the airlines and who will prepare you for the minimum standards of the FAA practical tests. For all the tsk, tsking on these forums about how ideal training would be otherwise, such training doesn't exist in the real world.
Back to the ATP, I have essentially decided that the 90-day accelerated program is not for me. Being available seven days a week, all day, is just not reasonable, and I don't believe that training on a modified full-time schedule, where I allow myself occaisional weekends off, will have a significant impact on my career long-term. With all these concerns about overworked instructors and scheduling priority, and I concerned, however, that I'll spend a lot of time sitting around, available to train but waiting for airplane and instructor availability. Can't seem to get any assurances or information about that from anyone.
Military training is certainly the best way to start a flying career, but is moot in the case of a 30-year-old with 20/500 uncorrected vision. I think you have to accept that, in the case of civilian flight training, your instructor will be a non-career flight instructor who is just building time to go to the airlines and who will prepare you for the minimum standards of the FAA practical tests. For all the tsk, tsking on these forums about how ideal training would be otherwise, such training doesn't exist in the real world.
Back to the ATP, I have essentially decided that the 90-day accelerated program is not for me. Being available seven days a week, all day, is just not reasonable, and I don't believe that training on a modified full-time schedule, where I allow myself occaisional weekends off, will have a significant impact on my career long-term. With all these concerns about overworked instructors and scheduling priority, and I concerned, however, that I'll spend a lot of time sitting around, available to train but waiting for airplane and instructor availability. Can't seem to get any assurances or information about that from anyone.
-LAFF
03-19-2007, 11:55 AM
#15
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Feb 2007
Posts: 105
I am actually planning to leave my job (I am self-employed, and have only to tell my clients that I am not available) and do flight training full-time. But I don't believe in the all-day-every-day training style of the 90-day program. I would like to do the self-paced program and train essentially full-time, but have the flexibility to take a weekend off now and then.
They do sell the 90-day program quite aggressively; every time I call and tell them I have questions about the self-paced program, they spend the entire phone call telling me why the 90-day program is better. Not to be snooty, but it sounds like a lot of people who go to ATP have never had real jobs before (based on what the instructors have told me they were doing before starting flight training) and therefore benefit from the structure of the 90-day program. Having had a professional career for nine years, I don't think I'll have any problem being motivated, organized and conscientious.
Where did you get your ppl?
They do sell the 90-day program quite aggressively; every time I call and tell them I have questions about the self-paced program, they spend the entire phone call telling me why the 90-day program is better. Not to be snooty, but it sounds like a lot of people who go to ATP have never had real jobs before (based on what the instructors have told me they were doing before starting flight training) and therefore benefit from the structure of the 90-day program. Having had a professional career for nine years, I don't think I'll have any problem being motivated, organized and conscientious.
Where did you get your ppl?
03-19-2007, 12:12 PM
#16
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Jul 2005
Posts: 2,242
Vacaville, CA.
I hear you about the sales pitch...Most of the guys seem really young and eager to get to a regional.
The one I had admitted he makes just enough to eat and drink and not much else but he's kept busy and has a direction he didn't have before...
-LAFF
I hear you about the sales pitch...Most of the guys seem really young and eager to get to a regional.
The one I had admitted he makes just enough to eat and drink and not much else but he's kept busy and has a direction he didn't have before...
-LAFF
03-19-2007, 12:15 PM
#17
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Jul 2005
Posts: 2,242
Originally Posted by RXS676
I am actually planning to leave my job (I am self-employed, and have only to tell my clients that I am not available) and do flight training full-time. But I don't believe in the all-day-every-day training style of the 90-day program. I would like to do the self-paced program and train essentially full-time, but have the flexibility to take a weekend off now and then.
They do sell the 90-day program quite aggressively; every time I call and tell them I have questions about the self-paced program, they spend the entire phone call telling me why the 90-day program is better. Not to be snooty, but it sounds like a lot of people who go to ATP have never had real jobs before (based on what the instructors have told me they were doing before starting flight training) and therefore benefit from the structure of the 90-day program. Having had a professional career for nine years, I don't think I'll have any problem being motivated, organized and conscientious.
Where did you get your ppl?
They do sell the 90-day program quite aggressively; every time I call and tell them I have questions about the self-paced program, they spend the entire phone call telling me why the 90-day program is better. Not to be snooty, but it sounds like a lot of people who go to ATP have never had real jobs before (based on what the instructors have told me they were doing before starting flight training) and therefore benefit from the structure of the 90-day program. Having had a professional career for nine years, I don't think I'll have any problem being motivated, organized and conscientious.
Where did you get your ppl?
Nothing ventured nothing won...
-LAFF
03-19-2007, 02:18 PM
#18
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Feb 2007
Posts: 105
Same here, I wanted to make sure I could pay for the training on my own before taking the plunge. It floors me that someone would take on $45K of debt for a job that starts paying 20K.
How are you retiring already? Military?
How are you retiring already? Military?
03-21-2007, 03:21 PM
#19
Line Holder
Joined APC: Jan 2007
Posts: 64
ME Training
Originally Posted by vs38viking
I was very disappointed with the quality of the ATP flight school. Four day ATP program turned into a one month nightmare. No one would call me back to schedule or commit to a time for flight training. Instructors are overloaded with students and overworked. When I finally cancelled –ATP had the nerve to charge me $350/hr for flight time when other schools charge $220/hr. Save your money and go elsewhere. Experience: Prior military Iraq veteran, fly 135 cargo, 2200 hrs, 1200 multi, 300 actual, CFI/CFII/MEI, and JimKoziarskiof ATP had the nerve to say that I lack experience. (Wow, isn't that why I'm at a training school?) They really made me feel like scum. If you think you are getting an edge on the regional airlines, you are in for a rude awakening.
03-21-2007, 04:47 PM
#20
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Jul 2005
Posts: 2,242
Originally Posted by RXS676
Same here, I wanted to make sure I could pay for the training on my own before taking the plunge. It floors me that someone would take on $45K of debt for a job that starts paying 20K.
How are you retiring already? Military?
How are you retiring already? Military?
-LAFF
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