Yeah I did. But I don't think any other flight school can compare with ATP on the ME time for the Price.... The next in line is 100Hrs of ME and it's higher. ATP you'll get 140ME hrs and It's CHEAPER and Quicker...... And there's no Mom and Pop operation or FBO that could do that without shooting their self in the foot???

http://www.atpflightschool.com/airli...ams/facts.html

You made the right choice...

-LAFF

How would you know? Been there?:rolleyes:

LOL...Good one.

I'm curious as to what's going to happen when all the 250 hour ATP/RAA/DCA wonders eventually upgrade to the big chair on the left.

To the OP, give Slice and De727ups' opinions a little more weight than some 172 driver. These guys have been around quite a long time, and know what they're talking about.

As for ATP- they're just mediocre in my book. I had a chance to fly with a few of their grads who weren't hired as CFIs (read the fine print VERY carefully), and had to do some aircraft checkouts for them. IMHO- ATP teaches you to pass a check ride, plain and simple. While these guys weren't a danger to the flying public per se, it was very difficult to get them to think out of the box or deal with various outlandish scenarios. But that was just my observation from a few years ago.

Good luck with your flight training!! :)

As far as ATP students being mediocre, ANY pilot, no matter where they are trained can be mediocre.

It's been my experience that whether you train at an FBO or a pilot factory, what you get out of it is what you put into it. I did my private at an FBO, and most of what I learned was self-study. My instructor did not require me to go the extra mile, I was simply taught the maneuevers I needed to know for the checkride. Everything else I did was on my own. Now that I am at ATP, it's the same. I'll get out of it what I put into it. Self study and understanding is important to me, I'm not here just to pass the checkride and slide by at the bare minimums. I'm here to learn, study my butt off, and be one heck of a pilot. Will ATP make me that? Nope. I WILL MAKE ME THAT. ATP is just providing the structure and foundation, I'm doing the grunt work.

Sure, there are some people out there that just strive to be mediocre - but you can't say that it's just because they go to ATP/DCA/RAA etc. As for me, when I upgrade - it's gonna be RAD. And I WILL be a great Captain because I *want* to be, not because of how fast I can get there or because I'm an "ATP wonder...."

Their Record Speaks for itself. The last 12 Months 224 of their Grads have been hired..... Most by the company U work for. I this 6months alone 123 have been hired. The month and a half I've been here at ATP 5 of my Ex instructors have been hired 3 by your company. Also there's been people hired that's not represented by their website. There's no school in the US that can match that.... If they train you to pass checkrides they do a pretty good job at it then. Also I think your evaluation is wrong, until you've don it and seen the amount of people that WEEDED out, then you'll understand why the program is so successful and the Airlines Love their grads.

Whats ATPs safety record? I presume with all those inexperienced CFIs and students its got to be bad.

Anyone?

ATP is one of many options. The astute consumer will realize they do their job well and they are (like it or not) the future for airline training in the US.

As I understand many of the fllight schools that cater to Japanese / German airlines are structured like ATP.

-LAFF

I can't find anything in the FARs about having to know more than the required test standards per federal regulations? Would you please direct me that page?

'Think outside the box' What exactly does that mean?

Various outlandish scenarios - Don't airlines cover that in their training programs?

Thanks,
LAFF

Some people just can't fathom some getting all their ratings in 90days as opposed to 1year 2years or more. It's kinda sad to see that pilots backlash against these sort of schools because they did another route. It's obvious the Airlines like the way ATP conduct their business. The way ATP trains is structured around Airline training. That's why ATP grads do so well in airline training. They've just done 90days of drinking from the fire hydrant. So they're well prepared. As for moving to the left seat........ ATP has been around for almost 25years, now I'm pretty sure there's Captains from there that's done very well in the industry.

"'Think outside the box' What exactly does that mean?"

I know exactly what it means. And the implications. It means having the seasoning/experience/background to make the right decision in a situation you weren't specifically trained for or have never seen.

"Various outlandish scenarios - Don't airlines cover that in their training programs?"

No. Experience/background helps to fill in the blanks, though. There is a big difference between what the FAA needs to see in training and how the real world works.

Again. I have no problem with ATP. It's the 90 day program and moving straight into being a CFI, then moving straight into a jet after 200 hours, that I have a problem with. I would rather see a more experienced/seasoned pilot in the seat. With the ATP program, you never leave the "academy/training" enviornment to experience the real world. I don't think that's a good thing.

So do I...It means nothing...No such thing as 'thinking outside the box.' Its a pithy line to throw out at a board meeting and little else. Please tell me you have something more than 'your inexperience is showing' or 'he's only a PPL.' Those are getting old and your not defending your position well.

How many thousands of hours do RJs fly in a month w/out accident / incident. How many JAL planes are out there w/ 0 to airline FOs that went thru accelerated airline training programs?

Experience / background can be gained once flying the line as a FO at a regional. Right? Why subject yourself to being a CFI spending your days ripping people off when what you need is airline flying experience?

You do leave the academy/training environment once you're hired at a regional. As an FO your a required crew-member. Despite your experience level you're their to learn. Even as a 10K+ hour Captain you are still learning - right? Airline flying as an FO is your experience / background building. How does being a CFI get you prepared for the airlines?

The european / asian training model of taking 0 hour pilots to 121 FO qualifications is the future and I'm going to be a part of it.

There is no need to waste time working as a CFI, pipe-line patrol, traffic-watch, etc...

-LAFF
-LAFF

I can do better than that post. A lot of mistakes in it. This is getting my blood pressure up...

-LAFF

LAFF, don't go to PAS. You won't appreciate learning beyond PTS standards. With your attitude and one track mindedness, they're too good for you. There's my pitch for ATP.

attitude and one track mindedness = persistence.

-LAFF

Wow LAFF, you're quick. As soon as I posted I decided to edit out "You're lack of experience is showing, LAFF" as being unnecessarily antagonistic.

But you caught it.

Nice job.

Anyways, considering your background, I don't know how you'd know squat about 121 training and what is, and isn't, covered, and how that plays out in real world "outside the box" situations.

More like ignorance.

There you go projecting again... hats wrong - all the hair dressers in town already dating other fighter pilots?

-LAFF

I know one thing...ATPs career program prepares students to pass 121 training. In the recent past many of those students have less than 1000 hrs TT. The facts speak for ATPs program.

There you go again with the outside the box situations...

-LAFF

So why exactly is being a CFI a waste of time? Why is check hauling a waste? Why is traffic watch a waste? Enlighten me please.

I don't know what the hell that means but the current GF is a trauma nurse.

Ah, some sense. I've read these forums and I see a lot of people looking for the quickest way to an airline. I understand there are monetary concerns, but why not just enjoy the adventure as you're working your way up? Disliking your job is much more depressing than being in debt. Something about driving a regional jet from point A to B to A to B to A just doesn't sit well with me.

Back to the original poster... do what works for you. The reasons there are FBOs and places like ATP is because different stuff works for different people. Personally, I find the more strict and competetive training atmosphere helps my learning curve. It's going to take a lot of research on your behalf. Once you chose, go balls to the wall and don't stop until you're finished. Breaks are flight training killers.

Good luck.

Here's my take. I've done ATP for my MEI and ATP ticket. I've done "local FBO" for everything else except CFI, did that in a University setting. I think that pretty much covers the avenues. I CFI'd for 3+ years at a local FBO, then did accelerated instrument ratings exclusively, and dropped skydivers on the side. I currently drive around the west coast on the left side of a Brazilia.

Regionals like ATP because those guys can pass the training. That's as far as the regional hiring dept. is looking. The hiring dept. is mostly concerned with meeting its hiring goals, and little else.

Real world and real world decisions are completely *completely* different from the structured training environment, and everybody who has been there, knows it.

The beauty of ATP/university training, and Part 121 flying is structure. Lots of eyes looking at every operation. That's great, and is why the safety record is so good.

But what happens when that structure breaks down, or you have dispatchers/maint trying to 'bend' it, or you encounter something you didn't train for? If your whole pilot career has been: here is the paperwork, there is the plane, go fly this profile, you (probably) never had to make a tough decision, or 'push back' against the structure.

If you've done CFI and other single pilot jobs, that don't have the 'structure' around you, you learn to make good decisions, often by having made bad decisions.

Flying on duty hour 13, flight hour 7, with sasquatch in the room above you last night, you got maybe 3-4 hours of sleep, and FO is on their first trip off IOE...and not doing well. Coastal fog is at minimums. Are you safe? You're legal. Dispatch and crew support will say "you're legal". But when will you push back?

The Skydive center owner (with a *serious* anger management problem) wants you to take the last otter load up. Coastal fog is approaching the drop zone. You are *very* hungry for twin turbine PIC time. All the skydivers want to drop. Before you start up, the owner says, "but don't go if you don't think you can drop, I won't pay you for this load if you don't drop them, and I don't want to waste the gas." Do you go? Do you tell them to pound sand?

You look at the fog, and you know it pretty well. It seems to be holding off. You go. At altitude, with the fading sun in your eyes, you have a tough time seeing the drop zone. Is is fogged in, or is that just haze-to-later-become-fog? Experienced drop master says "it looks good. let's go." You know this dropmaster to *always* go, no matter what. All 19 divers are looking at you. Do you give the green light? Or bag it?

Every pilot who has done some *real* PIC flying has a list of stories like this a mile long. That's the key. How much of your flying career have you had to make tough decisions? Going from ATP, buying some ME time with an instructor (also logging PIC), to right seat of that shiny jet, how much decision making happened? When it's time for the left seat, were you paying attention to what was happening on the other side of the plane when you sat right seat? or just said "clear right!, and you're right!"

I can tell you it is a totally different view when *YOU* make the calls.

FA says pax smells of booze. You watched said pax board, and they seemed fine to you, and it's last flight of the night. do you boot 'em?
FO says hydraulic fluid leaking on right side, at an outstation (no mx). You noticed it earlier, and it wasn't too bad. It's day 4 and 2 legs til home. Do you go?
etc, etc.

Which lesson plan from the ATP accelerated training addresses these kinds of things?

They have to be learned in the real world. If you start learning them with 30-70 people behind you, it gets real interesting.

whew, I'm done.

Excellent post. I wish I was that articulate.

Irrelevant!!!!! Name me a Case when an ATP grad has crashed a plane or made bad decisions that resulted in something bad happening.......


Fact: No Matter what School you go to The AIRLINE has their own manuals which governs each CA or FO. They will TEACH you their way... weather you flew Skydivers for the last 4years or you just got out of Flightschool with 240hrs they will teach you the way the Want you to do things..... Again ATP has been around since 1985. IT works!!!!

TwotterDriver is succinct and correct. It is very relevant. Saying experience is "Irrelevant!!!!! " demonstrates you are missing a big point. Nothing to do with ATP grads, it was the value of experience. Hours also don't necessarily provide valuable experience. They only offer the opportunity to gain exposure to real experience. Good luck in gaining yours. I always have learned from others experience and valued their mentoring to me. I have learned numerous lessons from pilots who thought they could do the job regardless. Dead people make worthy lessons in what to avoid, made real by ones own experiences. I have been lucky a thousand times, but learned a few things as all professional pilots should.
Read the NTSB background of this Capt and F/O. A teachable moment. Also, don't put all your faith as you appear to do in the airlines "training" or manuals. Crash of Pinnacle Airlines Flight 3701Bombardier CL-600-2B19, N8396AJefferson City, Missouri October 14, 2004

And just how is the kool-aid?

I think both of those guys were Gulfstream International Grads. I asked for a case that an ATP grad has crashed an airplane.... AGAIN you guys have No CLUE how ATP works.... A 20year captain who knows the airplane and the checklist like the back of his hand, knows what to omit "because that never goes wrong" can crash an airplane and kill people. A 2month FO who knows he doesn't know the aircraft well, follows the checklist and catch the mistake and Saves everyone..... GUYS show me statics that prove your point..... Again there's no SUBSTANCE here everything is just OPINIONATED!!!!!

I think both the CA and the FO were GulfStream International Grads, I remember asking for a case of ATP grad killing someone. Ok you have a point about Experience but it has nothing to do with safety or performance. After being a captain for 10years know the checklist like the back of you hand knowing you can leave some things out because it never goes wrong can lead to the crash of the aircraft. 3month FO knows that he doesn't know very much and Needs to follow the Checklist can Prevent that from happening..... LOOK guys 20yr seasoned veterans have crashed Airplanes due to their Messup there's no S

Also fas for the Pinnacle crash I read the entire transcript for that flight, those guys were messing around from the time they left the ground. That have nothing to do with experience, but their maturity level.


Do you recall AAL587? The PIC had 8050 an I'm the pretty sure the FO wasn't too far behind.... Not in the 250hr range....


NSTB Probable CAUSE STATES: The in-flight separation of the vertical stabilizer as a result of the loads beyond ultimate design that were created by the first officer's unnecessary and excessive rudder pedal inputs. Contributing to these rudder pedal inputs were characteristics of the Airbus A300-600 rudder system design and elements of the American Airlines Advanced Aircraft Maneuvering Program.


HRS and Experience??? 265people were killed in this Accident

You want statistics? How about insurance rates for pilots with less than 500 hours. Tell me it isn't the highest of all pilots. Still waiting for the answer to why instructing or traffic watch or dropping skydivers is a waste of your valuable time.

Because Insurance Rates are higher doesn't mean that they're LESS SAFE...
That's with anything Sir, the younger insurance are going to be higher? You still haven't made a point.... Insurance rates on vehicles are higher also if you're over 60.LOL they have a LOT the experience.

I never said that Skydivers or Traffic watch was a waste of time.... Honestly it's whatever floats your boat....

Nice Quote!!!!
"My choice is what i choose to do, if it causes no harm it shouldn't bother you. Your choice is who you choose, if it causes no harm then your alright with me." - Ben Harper

Ok, at least your learning something. Experience affects maturity. I having nothing personal against ATP (and how do you know that I don't know anything about ATP?). With absolute certainty I can tell you that training everywhere is imperfect. Military, airlines, FBO's, etc. The smarter ones realize this and are forthcoming about it. They all hope you use your brain in a mature and experienced way, even ATP. I hope you do too. You stated that the airlines would train you to do it there way. If that is all they needed, we could take human pilots out of the equation. Technology is already available. "Experience but it has nothing to do with safety or performance." still has me laughing. Oh well. ;)

I've stated several times sir that ATP has it's faults, but there's some people here who thinks it's the worst thing in Aviation.... Honestly I think I'm pretty safe..... I get in the airplane with some guys with 700 hrs, I'm going through the checklist and they tell me don't worry about it lets, go. Thats where I say "I'm sorry sir but I really need to go through this checklist. It's my time I've paid for it let me waste it the way i want to."

What I'm saying is that I'm sure there's some 20,000hr Captain who's has 200 lives at his/her hands, who thinks they now everything, and more dangerous than the 600hr counter part carrying 50 people. Again I'm not suggesting that exprience isn't a good thing to have. I'm suggesting that having 600hrs makes you dangerous and incapable of flying airplanes.

After all lets face it, Pilots aren't Pilots anymore, they're more like computer programmers.

EDIT>>>>>> *I'm suggesting that having 600hrs doesn't makes you dangerous and incapable of flying airplanes.*

"Irrelevant!!!!!"

You know stupid it makes you look to scream "Irrelevant!!!!!" in a discussion with an E120 Capt when you have 124 hours to your name.

This is what got you banned from the professional forums.

STUPID??? WOW why such harsh words??? IN AVIATION I GUESS HOURS IS EVERYTHING????? Well I just might shut up until i get enough hours to voice my Opinion because apparently "people" think it's stupid to do such... LOL It amazes me that one can be so closed minded. I see you fly for UPS but Sir think outside the BOX "no Pun intended," Again you're saying I'M RIGHT BECAUSE I GOT MORE HOURS THAN YOU SO YOU NEED TO LISTEN.... READ MY SIGNATURE!!!!

Can we make this an adult debate without insulting another?

"IN AVIATION I GUESS HOURS IS EVERYTHING????? "

You got that right. I don't see how you could have missed it. That's always been a given.

You'll notice I didn't call YOU stupid. That would be insulting. I simply said your comments make you look stupid, and you can't spell proof. This is great stuff.

I'm up for an adult debate, too...

You got 124 hours to your name. You are telling someone who's been a CFI since 1980 he's not qualified to have an opinion on ATP's 90 day program because he didn't go to ATP. What kind of sense does that make?

Sir you have a right to your opinion (and qualifications have NOTHING to do with that) but suggesting that I don't have a right to my opinion because I only have 124 hours? What kind of sense does that make? I'm a big fan of evidence and facts U haven't proven that a 90 CFI makes a worst/better student than a 20year CFI? That's all I'm saying

"I'm a big fan of evidence and facts U haven't proven that a 90 CFI makes a worst/better student than a 20year CFI?"

Sorry, this sentence makes no sense. Since we're having an adult discussion here, you might want to try again, as words mean things. But I'll take a guess at your intent....

Are you saying a CFI with 90 days experience is going to be as good as a CFI with 20 years experience? And that I need to prove that to you, somehow, for you to believe it?

Sorry, some things in aviation can't be proven on paper. You just need to look to the opinion of the vast majority. I think I win on that one. But, knock yourself out if you wanna believe an ATP 90 day program CFI is as good as a guy who's been doing it for 20 years. I think it's a silly thing to even comprehend.

Makes more sense, though, if one believes hours/experience/background/seasoning mean nothing and that training can make up for it.

I don't believe that for a second....