GunnerV -

Is what you are describing as a "power off 180" that is part of the COM checkride the same as a power off landing from the abeam (or 180) position in the landing pattern? If so - then I would say that we are actually talking about two different training scenarios here.

USMCFLYR

 

"The UK-CAA pre-takeoff brief states that we will not attempt to turn back to the runway unless established in the crosswind."

That sounds reasonable. At pattern altitude on the crosswind you'd have a good shot at making it back.

 

One thing that hasn't been mentioned, is runway length. At a 3000' strip, you're never going to make it, but a 5000-8000+ there's a viable chance because we would normally assume you took off full-length. When I was teaching full-time, I would teach it that you only would make a turn back to the runway after you have joined the cross-wind, because that 90 degree turn at least lets you see the runway and your position. In some situations, it still might be better off to land straight ahead, but now that you can visually see the runway in comparison to your position, you can make that judgement call(even though 99% of the student decisions are wrong, it does present a great learning experience!!!!!)

 

The power off 180 is not the same as the teardrop turn.. The 180 starts at pattern altitude, while the supposed "teardrop" begins around 500ft. Bit difference when you are also in a high angle of attack and slower airspeed than abeam the numbers. Not to mention what ewf said about not being able to see the runway at 500ft right off the runway... Just dont do it.

 

another difference is with a power off 180 you are usually landing with a headwind.... where a "teardrop" is usually a tailwind...also the power-off 180 isn't that tight of a bank like a "teardrop would be"... @ 500-700ft that would have to be a +45 degree bank.

all in all I guess it would depend on the airplane and how much energy is lost (Cd, Cl, weight per bank, etc)... maybe usmc-sgt's highlander would be able to do something like that...

however most pilot error/aerodynamic accidents happen when bank is introduced

 

I've heard of this maneuver, but usually it's done in a Cessna. Cirrus is a bad choice for a very questionable manuever. I'd never dream of doing it in a Piper, and didn't think about it in the Diamonds either. It really just isn't worth it. The only airplane I've flown that might have an option on is a T-41 due to it's impressive climb performance. But really you would turn crosswind before you would think to turn around so once again I just don't see the point in this kind of training.

 

Well today I flew with a student in a PA28-181(Archer) and we use a 6000' rwy. With today's temps, and calm winds, you still wouldn't make it back. So 8000' would definately be needed in warm, high density days. Now in the winter, in combination with an appx 15kt headwind, that it is very possible.

 

Ive been in this situation before in a 152 that lost about 70% of its power on takeoff about 3 months ago. Lost power on the base leg about 4 seconds before i was going to start my downwind turn. Did my flow to make sure everything was working. (fuel selector, carb heat, mags, primer.) Didnt let my instructor fly since i was a cfi applicant. landed on a different runway since there was intersecting runways. Came out fine and plane went to maintenance and had spark plug wire problems.

Just remember if your a cfi to teach students that if some one is calling an engine failure you teach them that they should leave the airport and go some where else besides there. Some student on a solo was calling final when i was pretty much gliding on final on the intersecing runway. Wanted to give the student a few words when i was done, but let his instructor know instead.

 

This is the whole reason we teach picking out your best landing field and following the proper steps before landing... A private pilot (lower time that is), is not going to have the experience or muscle memory to be able to complete a restart memory checklist at 500ft agl. You need to teach them decision making so that they know the only thing they should be concerned with at this point is finding a good place to land IN FRONT of them, or BARELY off to the side. You have to remember that as a CFI we hold quite a bit of responsibility, and you want to give your students the BEST tools to keep them safe and responsible.

 

I am not a circus stunt pilot and I don't put excessive G's on the airplane...but I have demonstrated in C172's and MXT-7s that if you have 500 ft agl you can get turned around on the upwind and land...it is all about airspeed management...remember you can do anything with airspeed...even if you dont have altitude. What it really comes down to....HOW WELL DO YOU KNOW YOUR AIRPLANE?