jelloy683

Need some advice from the CFI's/professional pilots out there. One of my students (who happens to be quite wealthy) bought a Cirrus SR-22. He plans on using it for his own use (he owns a business, and has clients all over the place) as well as lease it out to our flight school. As part of the insurance requirement for me to instruct in it, i needed to take a Cirrus Standardized Instructor Program course, which is basically like a type rating which costs around $3,400, which he paid for. He doesnt have his PPL yet, and needs to get his instrument rating in order to fly it solo (insurance). We had no previous agreement beforehand, but after I finished my CSIP training, he said that he expected that I would give his training for free since he paid for the cost of the program. Am I wrong to assume that the cost of the CSIP training is an associated cost of buying a Cirrus? CFI'ing is my main source of income, and he expects me to free-instruct for his instrument rating, which could take anywhere from 50-150hrs...am I being out of line by saying that i demand to be paid for my services? The only draw back is that, I could rack up alot of XC hours with this guy when he flies all over the place to see his clients. I need some feedback...

Diver Driver

I dont think you are out of line at all for asking to be paid for your services. If I were you, I would explain to him that your only source of income is teaching people to fly and that you cannot afford to teach for 'free' in exchange for a course that is mandated by the insurance company. As a business owner, he should understand that. If you really want to do it and feel you have to make a compromise, cut him a deal for like 10% off your normal instruction cost... but dont do it for free, it isnt fair to you. These expenses are known and normal; if he cannot afford it, he shouldn't have purchased the aircraft.

kalyx522

No, I think this guy is the one who is way out of line. He's asking you to work for free.
HE asked you to instruct him... but in order for you to instruct in HIS plane, you HAVE to do this program. So obviously, the burden of the program cost is on HIM. Remember, he's the one who wants your instructing services, it's not like this is some kind of pay-for-training deal that you signed up for. I think it might've been a more reasonable expection on his part if he had provided you a common and valuable type rating for example, a business jet. It seems he feels he gave you kind of a handout when he paid for the program... but it's something you can only use for this one purpose, really.
Besides, if this dude really is as wealthy as you say he is... what's another grand or two to pay you a real wage? Don't let him play you!
I hope you can come to a fair agreement with him..

Pilotpip

1st) CSIP is not like a type rating. However, it's a good program and will probably lead to other Cirrus owners calling you for instruction because you'll be listed on their website after completion.

2) Regardless of paying for the training or not, he should pay you for your time. A $300,000+ aircraft plus all the operating expenses that go along with it (easily another $50k per year) and he's not willing to pay you for your time and expertise? Sorry, but what are you supposed to live on while you're flying around with him? Plus there are plenty of other Cirrus owners out there that would now pay you to fly with them.

Ask him if he'd tell a carpenter that he'd buy the lumber but expect the guy to build a deck for free. Same thing.

jedinein

Not another one. I'm wondering what line CDC and/or the owner's group is feeding these guys, it's a SEL piston, not a GV. Your mistake was not having a written agreement before taking the training. Make absolutely certain that there is a written agreement in place before that aircraft hits the flight school line, if your school even wants to deal with him at this point.

BTW, did he pay for the training, or did CDC refuse to train him as he's not a private pilot thus you took the training in lieu of him? If so, he didn't lose a cent. Did you accept the aircraft, perform the acceptance flight, conduct the delivery flight, and so on? That's 2-4 days of your time right there, and definitely a professional service for which you should have been paid.

We had a gentleman like this. He paid for the CFI's travel days, paid for several lessons, then, refused to sign the aircraft agreement, resulting in us managing his airplane for free plus unlimited liability. Our insurance would not cover the aircraft if there was not a signed agreeement, so we removed the aircraft from the fleet and insurance pending signing of the agreement (a process that took months). The gentleman took us to court still admant that his flight instruction should have been free (no one else's was, even with the CSIP training), look at what all he did for us (we had customers lined up to do the same and they weren't complaining about paying a professional for professional services), whine, cry, cry. He did not prevail. Still, we lost a lot of time dealing with the situation, time we would have best spent working with customers that actually wanted to pay us for our services.

But don't worry, there are plenty of "CSIPs" that will work for $5-50 an hour less than you, will work for free, will do their best to take your clients even at your school's get-a-client events, will buy the line about how the aircraft is invincible in icing conditions and teach that, will teach that violating regulations is perfectly acceptable, and basically, tell the aircraft owners what they want to hear.

Let this one go and focus on those clients that will value your services. If you don't want to let him go, give him exactly $3400 worth of instruction, then cut him off.

FlyJSH

Think of it this way, if he had hired you to be the pilot (not instructor), he would have to send you to the school anyway and then PAY YOU. Many aircraft manufacturers include one or two of these classes with the initial purchase, so he may have paid nothing for it.

If, as you say, he will need +/-100 hours of flight time, I do believe you would be smart in giving him a reasonable discount (10-20%) since he will be giving you so much business.

I would also be weary of him doing these cross countries. He may be thinking he will "let" you give him instruction to and from a business meeting. Which would leave you sitting in the FBO for several hours. If he pulls this, I would suggest a flat day rate: for an eight hour day, I would probably charge him for about six hours (think of it as a 75% duty rig). An alternative is to charge him a fee for waiting.... just like cabbies do.

This guy is probably one of the folks who doesn't bat an eye at paying $100 per hour to get his BMW fixed, but will moan all day about his A&P charging $50 per hour. Be careful.

Lastly, be sure either the flight school or his insurance covers YOUR actions. It would really suck for you if he runs the thing into a ditch while you are instructing, and he stick YOU with the bill.

Be VERY careful.

FlyJSH

Oh, and one more thing. Most of the flight schools I have taught at charged more for instruction in the STUDENT'S plane (especially a hot rod like the SR22). About 50% more if I recall correctly. See if your school has this policy. Never undercut your your school or fellow CFIs (again the 10-20% discount is okay for a good customer--just like price breaks for large block hour purchases).

And DO NOT go behind your current employer's back. You don't need to give all the details if you dont want to, but dont sneak around. Burned bridges are BAD!

rickair7777

If there was no agreement up front, then you should assume you will get paid for your time.

Like others have said, CSIP is not a type and is of real value only to someone who intends to make a habit of doing cirrus work. The typical time-building CFI will not get much return on the investment, so he should neither pay for it nor give substantial concessions in exchange for the training.

In any event, stuff like this should have been addressed up front...if it was not, business as usual is the assumption.

Ewfflyer

I won't even go into my opinion of CSIP and FITS and all that other crap.

Basically, it's the cost of doing business. Your knowledge and skills are your means of income. You should be open that your time is money, and depending on what you are being asked to do, certain things cost more. So you could charge a "Flight-rate" and a "ground-rate"(for the hours you'll probably be sitting on the ground). Your flight school needs to be part of this, and hopefully they support you over the client, but sometimes you never know.

Herbie

Teaching tis guy for free would be like an airline expecting it's pilots to fly for them for free because they put you through the training that is required for you to fly for them.

Bottom line, you are a professional pilot and you are to be paid as such. This person should understand that, being that he is in business for himself. But no pilot should ever provide his services for free, with the exception of a charitable flight (such as Angel Flight).

I know that there is a need to try to please this person as you could benefit from getting to fly around in his plane, but I benefit from the time I get flying the jet and I still get paid for that too. Just stick to your guns, after all, he needs you a lot more than you need him.