poor flight instructors
05-05-2006, 11:42 AM
#1
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Thread Starter
Joined APC: Apr 2005
Position: Glass
Posts: 254
poor flight instructors
has anyone gotten the feeling that flight instructors are taking them for a ride because they need the extra money?? didnt mean this to be a dig on CFI's, but this happens a lot to young students and often discourages them from continuing their training
05-05-2006, 11:58 AM
#2
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Joined APC: Nov 2005
Position: AA A320
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Often, CFI's who charge appropriately for their time are thought to be overcharging their students. In my opinion, all CFI's should charge for the following times, not just hobbs time: preflight briefing, the walk out the the airplane, preflight inspection (if not already completed by student), hobbs time, time to walk to building from airplane after lesson, and debriefing time.
Most students really do not value the time of their instructor and only wish to pay him or her for the hobbs time.
Most students really do not value the time of their instructor and only wish to pay him or her for the hobbs time.
05-05-2006, 12:12 PM
#3
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Joined APC: Jul 2005
Position: EMB 170/175 F.O.
Posts: 549
Originally Posted by KiloAlpha
Often, CFI's who charge appropriately for their time are thought to be overcharging their students. In my opinion, all CFI's should charge for the following times, not just hobbs time: preflight briefing, the walk out the the airplane, preflight inspection (if not already completed by student), hobbs time, time to walk to building from airplane after lesson
05-05-2006, 12:21 PM
#4
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Joined APC: Jan 2006
Position: Furloughed
Posts: 275
As an instructor, if you consider the students financial situation, and do the best you can to save your student money, for example: telling them what to study and read, telling them how to prepare for a flight, telling them to couch fly often. Then they will realize this and feel much better about coming to each lesson to fly with you.
Also...If its a bumpy day, and as an instructor, you think a flight today in the conditions will not help the student much, voice this to the student, and they will think very highly of you for doing so.
I have been fortunate enough to have an instructor who treats me this way, I remember sitting in a piper warrior, just about to fire the engine up, and he suggested I listen to the AWOS for a few minutes. The winds were increasing, and the ceilings were lowering, and we decided that a flight in those conditions would be a waste of money, even if we stayed in the pattern.
30 minutes later, it got pretty bad, a cold front was just passing through.
My point is, if a instructor considers the students training so important that he will suggest canceling a flight because he/she thinks it will do little to help the student, it will show, and the student will tell his/her buddies about the instructor, increased business, everyone is happy!
I am only half an instructor, almost done!
Also...If its a bumpy day, and as an instructor, you think a flight today in the conditions will not help the student much, voice this to the student, and they will think very highly of you for doing so.
I have been fortunate enough to have an instructor who treats me this way, I remember sitting in a piper warrior, just about to fire the engine up, and he suggested I listen to the AWOS for a few minutes. The winds were increasing, and the ceilings were lowering, and we decided that a flight in those conditions would be a waste of money, even if we stayed in the pattern.
30 minutes later, it got pretty bad, a cold front was just passing through.
My point is, if a instructor considers the students training so important that he will suggest canceling a flight because he/she thinks it will do little to help the student, it will show, and the student will tell his/her buddies about the instructor, increased business, everyone is happy!
I am only half an instructor, almost done!
05-05-2006, 01:19 PM
#5
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Joined APC: Apr 2005
Position: Glass
Posts: 254
private students are quite different than instrument and commercial students.. many IFR and CPL students understand the value of a good walkaround and preflight, as well as a good understanding of the weather.. what chaps my ass is that some CFI's see a student finishing too quickly (PPL in 45 hrs, vs 60) and they feel they need to build up more time with them in the airplane, even though they are more than proficient...
more times than none, the student really does think something is wrong and get down on themselves because they honestly feel something is wrong with the way they fly.. add a few thousand dollars on top of that and you might as well take the dream from them
for my instrument, i had a CFI say he wanted to spend another 10 hours in the airplane with me (at 140 an hour) and then he would sign me off for the checkride, when in fact the chief instructor gave me the ok three weeks prior and gave his checkride to ATP standards instead of just IRA PTS standards, just to ensure precision...
in this case, the guy really tried to dog me out of 1500 bucks and i took myself elsewhere, and then PASSED the checkride, even though the CFI said it was impossible at the time...
more times than none, the student really does think something is wrong and get down on themselves because they honestly feel something is wrong with the way they fly.. add a few thousand dollars on top of that and you might as well take the dream from them
for my instrument, i had a CFI say he wanted to spend another 10 hours in the airplane with me (at 140 an hour) and then he would sign me off for the checkride, when in fact the chief instructor gave me the ok three weeks prior and gave his checkride to ATP standards instead of just IRA PTS standards, just to ensure precision...
in this case, the guy really tried to dog me out of 1500 bucks and i took myself elsewhere, and then PASSED the checkride, even though the CFI said it was impossible at the time...
05-05-2006, 01:20 PM
#6
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Thread Starter
Joined APC: Apr 2005
Position: Glass
Posts: 254
on a last note, one thing i learned from when i was really young is that "you dont screw with a man's time and money, because they are the most valued things he has"
CFI's, please take note
CFI's, please take note
05-05-2006, 04:30 PM
#7
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Joined APC: Dec 2005
Position: FO, looking left
Posts: 1,057
I agree that there are a lot of good CFI's, and a lot of bad ones.
When I was flight training, I had some of the best CFI's I had ever met (even up to this day). My private instructor taught me an important lesson that I later applied as a CFI. I was a college student who was paying for my entire flight training out of my own pockets, and I did not want to be overcharged! He did not charge me from the moment I walked in the door until the moment I left.
He would charge for two things:
Flight time
Meaningful ground instruction
An example:
I walk in the door at 2:00, call and get my weather briefing
We sit down at 2:05 for a discussion of what we will do on the flight,
At 2:20, we stop talking, and I get the keys to the aircraft and we walk out.
On the way out, we sometimes talk about about flying. Other times we would talk about sports teams. Sometimes I would go out by myself and preflight, while he finished up other business.
By 2:40, the preflight was done. We hoped in the airplane, took of and flew until about 3:45.
We walked back. I paid for the airplane while he signed my logbook. We would spend about another 15 minutes doing a postflight briefing.
4:15, we are done for the day.
Even though I was there for 2:15 minutes, what did we do?
15 minutes of pre-flight briefing
1:05 of flight time
5 minutes signing my logbook
15 minutes of post flight briefing.
For a total of 1:40. He would usually round that to 1.5.
I apply this same method to all my students. Why should they pay for my time when they are preflighting the aircraft, and I am just standing there. I would usually charge them for the first few times when they learn to preflight (because I need to teach them and then watch over them carefully). But after we have done a few flights, there is no need for me. I am just killing time. Same goes with the walk to/from the aircraft. No need to charge if we are BS'ing about how nice the weather is, or what we did over the weekend.
As far as I am concerned, the only time I will charge for is either:
a) in the aircraft
b) when I am actually teaching them something (i.e. I am talking)
As a student, I once had an instructor who would charge me for preflighting while he sat inside. After I questioned him about it once, I told him I want him to either be outside teaching me something useful, or he could sit inside and not charge me. But if he continued to charge me for nothing, I would no longer fly with him. Problem fixed! I believe flight instructors should charge for time when they are "teaching."
When I was flight training, I had some of the best CFI's I had ever met (even up to this day). My private instructor taught me an important lesson that I later applied as a CFI. I was a college student who was paying for my entire flight training out of my own pockets, and I did not want to be overcharged! He did not charge me from the moment I walked in the door until the moment I left.
He would charge for two things:
Flight time
Meaningful ground instruction
An example:
I walk in the door at 2:00, call and get my weather briefing
We sit down at 2:05 for a discussion of what we will do on the flight,
At 2:20, we stop talking, and I get the keys to the aircraft and we walk out.
On the way out, we sometimes talk about about flying. Other times we would talk about sports teams. Sometimes I would go out by myself and preflight, while he finished up other business.
By 2:40, the preflight was done. We hoped in the airplane, took of and flew until about 3:45.
We walked back. I paid for the airplane while he signed my logbook. We would spend about another 15 minutes doing a postflight briefing.
4:15, we are done for the day.
Even though I was there for 2:15 minutes, what did we do?
15 minutes of pre-flight briefing
1:05 of flight time
5 minutes signing my logbook
15 minutes of post flight briefing.
For a total of 1:40. He would usually round that to 1.5.
I apply this same method to all my students. Why should they pay for my time when they are preflighting the aircraft, and I am just standing there. I would usually charge them for the first few times when they learn to preflight (because I need to teach them and then watch over them carefully). But after we have done a few flights, there is no need for me. I am just killing time. Same goes with the walk to/from the aircraft. No need to charge if we are BS'ing about how nice the weather is, or what we did over the weekend.
As far as I am concerned, the only time I will charge for is either:
a) in the aircraft
b) when I am actually teaching them something (i.e. I am talking)
As a student, I once had an instructor who would charge me for preflighting while he sat inside. After I questioned him about it once, I told him I want him to either be outside teaching me something useful, or he could sit inside and not charge me. But if he continued to charge me for nothing, I would no longer fly with him. Problem fixed! I believe flight instructors should charge for time when they are "teaching."
05-05-2006, 07:20 PM
#9
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Joined APC: Jan 2006
Position: Engines Turn Or People Swim
Posts: 39,232
Originally Posted by ryane946
I agree that there are a lot of good CFI's, and a lot of bad ones.
When I was flight training, I had some of the best CFI's I had ever met (even up to this day). My private instructor taught me an important lesson that I later applied as a CFI. I was a college student who was paying for my entire flight training out of my own pockets, and I did not want to be overcharged! He did not charge me from the moment I walked in the door until the moment I left.
He would charge for two things:
Flight time
Meaningful ground instruction
An example:
I walk in the door at 2:00, call and get my weather briefing
We sit down at 2:05 for a discussion of what we will do on the flight,
At 2:20, we stop talking, and I get the keys to the aircraft and we walk out.
On the way out, we sometimes talk about about flying. Other times we would talk about sports teams. Sometimes I would go out by myself and preflight, while he finished up other business.
By 2:40, the preflight was done. We hoped in the airplane, took of and flew until about 3:45.
We walked back. I paid for the airplane while he signed my logbook. We would spend about another 15 minutes doing a postflight briefing.
4:15, we are done for the day.
Even though I was there for 2:15 minutes, what did we do?
15 minutes of pre-flight briefing
1:05 of flight time
5 minutes signing my logbook
15 minutes of post flight briefing.
For a total of 1:40. He would usually round that to 1.5.
I apply this same method to all my students. Why should they pay for my time when they are preflighting the aircraft, and I am just standing there. I would usually charge them for the first few times when they learn to preflight (because I need to teach them and then watch over them carefully). But after we have done a few flights, there is no need for me. I am just killing time. Same goes with the walk to/from the aircraft. No need to charge if we are BS'ing about how nice the weather is, or what we did over the weekend.
As far as I am concerned, the only time I will charge for is either:
a) in the aircraft
b) when I am actually teaching them something (i.e. I am talking)
As a student, I once had an instructor who would charge me for preflighting while he sat inside. After I questioned him about it once, I told him I want him to either be outside teaching me something useful, or he could sit inside and not charge me. But if he continued to charge me for nothing, I would no longer fly with him. Problem fixed! I believe flight instructors should charge for time when they are "teaching."
When I was flight training, I had some of the best CFI's I had ever met (even up to this day). My private instructor taught me an important lesson that I later applied as a CFI. I was a college student who was paying for my entire flight training out of my own pockets, and I did not want to be overcharged! He did not charge me from the moment I walked in the door until the moment I left.
He would charge for two things:
Flight time
Meaningful ground instruction
An example:
I walk in the door at 2:00, call and get my weather briefing
We sit down at 2:05 for a discussion of what we will do on the flight,
At 2:20, we stop talking, and I get the keys to the aircraft and we walk out.
On the way out, we sometimes talk about about flying. Other times we would talk about sports teams. Sometimes I would go out by myself and preflight, while he finished up other business.
By 2:40, the preflight was done. We hoped in the airplane, took of and flew until about 3:45.
We walked back. I paid for the airplane while he signed my logbook. We would spend about another 15 minutes doing a postflight briefing.
4:15, we are done for the day.
Even though I was there for 2:15 minutes, what did we do?
15 minutes of pre-flight briefing
1:05 of flight time
5 minutes signing my logbook
15 minutes of post flight briefing.
For a total of 1:40. He would usually round that to 1.5.
I apply this same method to all my students. Why should they pay for my time when they are preflighting the aircraft, and I am just standing there. I would usually charge them for the first few times when they learn to preflight (because I need to teach them and then watch over them carefully). But after we have done a few flights, there is no need for me. I am just killing time. Same goes with the walk to/from the aircraft. No need to charge if we are BS'ing about how nice the weather is, or what we did over the weekend.
As far as I am concerned, the only time I will charge for is either:
a) in the aircraft
b) when I am actually teaching them something (i.e. I am talking)
As a student, I once had an instructor who would charge me for preflighting while he sat inside. After I questioned him about it once, I told him I want him to either be outside teaching me something useful, or he could sit inside and not charge me. But if he continued to charge me for nothing, I would no longer fly with him. Problem fixed! I believe flight instructors should charge for time when they are "teaching."
As a professional instructor, I expect to be compensated for the time I devote to the student, and should not be compensated for time that is not devoted to the student.
Obviously ground, pre/post flight briefings, and flight time are things I should be compensated for, but the nature of flight training is such that I need to be on-site and available during the entire lesson, including the pre-flight. If the student wants to save 15 minutes of instructor time, he should show up early and pre-flight before the lesson...otherwise he pays for that time also. I do not expect to be paid while at the gym, out with friends, at a movie, sleeping (unless I'm an airline pilot
), etc. But if I'm standing around with my thumb up my butt waiting for this guy to preflight or doing the paperwork for his lesson, hey it's only fair that I get paid.What about the businessman who spends 20 minutes yapping on his cell phone prior to the flight while I stand around waiting patiently...does he get charged? You better believe it! How 'bout the guy who's always 15 minutes late? Yeah, he's gonna pay too. This way I don't have to take it personally that they are wasting my time...they're paying for it! It's THEIR time...Waste away! If you train your students to expect to pay only for the time your mouth is moving, then they will expect you to stand around at no cost while they do other, more important things, and you will get very frustrated...
If you're dealing with a young, poor, aspiring commercial pilot who wants to maximize every dime then explain to him how to utilize his alloted lesson time effectively...you're a sucker if you cut him all kinds of breaks and then end up standing around while he talks to his girlfriend on the cell!
No other professional charges by the minute, it's always by the hour...rounded up. The Doctor allocates 30 minutes (at least) for your visit, but may only spend ten actually talking to you...but he's available for you, and has time to research your issue, call a specialist, order labs, etc.
Now there always situations, last minute cancellations and uncontrollable delays, sometimes you make allowances for unusual circumstances to maintain goodwill. But don't let repeat offenders get away with it! Also no need to charge while having dinner at that cross-country destination...that's a lunch break
Please don't get in the habit of selling yourself short...there's far too much of that in aviation today.
With that all being said, you have a moral responsibility to plan your student's training program so that he only spends what is necessary, but he needs to help you execute that plan! Don't sell him extra product that he doesn't need, but make sure you get paid for what he does need. Some (older, wealthier) students just want to have a fun, lesurely flying experience at their own convenience, and don't mind paying for it. They will usually make that clear up front. In that case you are an entertainer as well as an instructor.
05-06-2006, 07:45 PM
#10
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Joined APC: Jun 2005
Position: Retired
Posts: 2,934
Originally Posted by HeavyDriver
What is the current rate for Instruction these days?...Just curious?...I hate to tell you guys I paid $27.00 for a C-152/wet and $12.00 for the instructor per hour...But that was 1982 rates.
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