What a/c to buy for multi engine training?
04-14-2018, 09:57 AM
#21
Disinterested Third Party
Joined APC: Jun 2012
Posts: 6,008
A 310 has some of the best single engine performance in a light twin, with one of the higher single engine service ceilings. There are a lot of flavors of 310's, though. Make sure you get thorough pre-buy inspections done; look for damage to the nosegear and attach points and surrounding structure, tip tank area (especially the older tuna tanks), and corrosion around the underwing exhaust; the augmenter tubes aren't so bad, but the through wing exhaust areas tended to see more issues.
Remember that as you get into a twin, insurance will skyrocket compared to a fixed gear single, as will costs. The maintenance costs don't simply double with an extra engine, either. If you go with a leaseback arrangement, be very careful; they're seldom favorable to either party, and with serious maintenance issues, you can can get caught holding an expensive ramp queen.
Students shut down multi engine airplanes a lot in flight, which is a lot of rapid warming and cooling, and it's hard on starters, propellers, cylinders, accessories, etc; more wear, more damage, more opportunities for cylinders to fail, etc. As you get into more advanced aircraft, the systems become a bit more complex, too; there are some gotcha's in many light twin fuel systems, for example, and the 310 is no exception. You can create a situation during engine-out fuel where the bypass fuel to the pump is going to the dead-engine side in locations where you can't get to the fuel...you can run out of fuel if you manage it improperly, with plenty of fuel still on board. A thorough understanding and application of systems knowledge is essential.
Light twins are generally easy to fly, but they're also easy to abuse, which comes back to the new twin-pilot and student pilot issue. That can lead to expense, which is a lot more in these airplanes. A hard landing to the nosegear in a Cessna 172 or 182 can wrinkle the firewall, adding a lot of expense, but it's nothing compared to what can happen to a light twin. When the student moves to the light twin, the performance and potential advantages have increased, and the potential disadvantages and risks have also increased, but the experience and ability of the student have not; this opens up potential for abuse or worse, and insurance companies charge for that.
Light twins are heavier, and rather than think of it as two engines, think of it as two half-engines, and the loss of either one as taking away not 50% of your performance, but 80% of your available power...because much of the remaining power is consumed in fighting drag once the first engine is shut down. There are a number of situations in a light twin where the second engine may try to lull you into keeping flying, when really you can't, and now you're making a forced landing faster and heavier with a little less control, and fewer options for where to put the aircraft on the ground, along with more complicated procedures for extending gear and systems. All part of managing a light twin, but also things you need to actively consider at all times. Especially when viewing the context of insuring for yourself, or for others in instruction, leaseback, etc.
That said, the 310 still has some of the better performance for a light twin, especially if you get into the later models (310i on up. By the time you get to the 310r, you're into a whole different pricing scheme, though).
Remember that as you get into a twin, insurance will skyrocket compared to a fixed gear single, as will costs. The maintenance costs don't simply double with an extra engine, either. If you go with a leaseback arrangement, be very careful; they're seldom favorable to either party, and with serious maintenance issues, you can can get caught holding an expensive ramp queen.
Students shut down multi engine airplanes a lot in flight, which is a lot of rapid warming and cooling, and it's hard on starters, propellers, cylinders, accessories, etc; more wear, more damage, more opportunities for cylinders to fail, etc. As you get into more advanced aircraft, the systems become a bit more complex, too; there are some gotcha's in many light twin fuel systems, for example, and the 310 is no exception. You can create a situation during engine-out fuel where the bypass fuel to the pump is going to the dead-engine side in locations where you can't get to the fuel...you can run out of fuel if you manage it improperly, with plenty of fuel still on board. A thorough understanding and application of systems knowledge is essential.
Light twins are generally easy to fly, but they're also easy to abuse, which comes back to the new twin-pilot and student pilot issue. That can lead to expense, which is a lot more in these airplanes. A hard landing to the nosegear in a Cessna 172 or 182 can wrinkle the firewall, adding a lot of expense, but it's nothing compared to what can happen to a light twin. When the student moves to the light twin, the performance and potential advantages have increased, and the potential disadvantages and risks have also increased, but the experience and ability of the student have not; this opens up potential for abuse or worse, and insurance companies charge for that.
Light twins are heavier, and rather than think of it as two engines, think of it as two half-engines, and the loss of either one as taking away not 50% of your performance, but 80% of your available power...because much of the remaining power is consumed in fighting drag once the first engine is shut down. There are a number of situations in a light twin where the second engine may try to lull you into keeping flying, when really you can't, and now you're making a forced landing faster and heavier with a little less control, and fewer options for where to put the aircraft on the ground, along with more complicated procedures for extending gear and systems. All part of managing a light twin, but also things you need to actively consider at all times. Especially when viewing the context of insuring for yourself, or for others in instruction, leaseback, etc.
That said, the 310 still has some of the better performance for a light twin, especially if you get into the later models (310i on up. By the time you get to the 310r, you're into a whole different pricing scheme, though).
04-14-2018, 02:01 PM
#22
All is fine at .79
Joined APC: Sep 2016
Position: Paahlot
Posts: 4,082
Piper Aztec, top of my head it’s got a 12000’ SE service ceiling.
Honest to goodness airplane with not a bad bone in its body.
SE at SL will climb at 500fpm with your feet flat on the floor.
Training weights ( 2+full fuel) will put you 1800-2000lbs below max take off weight.
Only downside is two thirsty IO-540’s but in Training mode I’ve gotten it down to 26-28 gallons/hr.
Honest to goodness airplane with not a bad bone in its body.
SE at SL will climb at 500fpm with your feet flat on the floor.
Training weights ( 2+full fuel) will put you 1800-2000lbs below max take off weight.
Only downside is two thirsty IO-540’s but in Training mode I’ve gotten it down to 26-28 gallons/hr.
04-17-2018, 01:52 AM
#23
Line Holder
Joined APC: Jan 2018
Posts: 32
I also wanted to say dutchess....
<3
<3
Originally Posted by joepilot
Flight schools use a duchess or seminloe for training because they are cheap, not because they provide good training. If you have the money to buy an airplane, you can afford better training.
We all know that an aircraft in flight is a lousy classroom. Learn the engine out drills in a simulator, so you don't waste expensive time doing so in the airplane. If you are instrument rated, definitely do engine out approaches in the sim.
Then train in a challenging airplane such as the Cessna 310 or a twin Comanche.
Joe
We all know that an aircraft in flight is a lousy classroom. Learn the engine out drills in a simulator, so you don't waste expensive time doing so in the airplane. If you are instrument rated, definitely do engine out approaches in the sim.
Then train in a challenging airplane such as the Cessna 310 or a twin Comanche.
Joe
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