Accelerated Professional Pilot Program
 

So like many low timers like me I am looking for ways to cheaply build time. Now i came across this company that strictly sells block time on multi and single engine aircraft. It is called Accelerated Professional Pilot Program APPP. Its a company in Dallas executive that sells cheap multi block time. I wanted to know if anyone here had any experience or had used this company before. To me it sounds too good to be true, I talked to one of their Sales Managers on the phone that their intense program lets you get 200 multi hours in 28 days or so.

My biggest worry about it is the fact that they want a direct deposit of the money up front in their bank account or wire. Before they even schedule they want the money. I don't want to drop a crap ton of money here and up like many students such as jetcareer U(i think thats what its called) who paid up front and then the school shut down. It all looks fine and dandy on paper, but is it what it really seems? multi-enginetime.com is their website.

Anyone plz share any info

hey dude!

Paying up front is always risky, but on the other side there are a lot of schools require that. I called up the school you are talking about last year. They offered me the same deal. They are quite cheap though, but I never flew with them.

Try out skyventureinc in Arkansas. Skyventure Aviation Inc.: Flight Training School. Call them and ask about renting the multi.

Or try out multi engine training in Arlington, Dallas. They have some old travel airs.

Good luck!

Did I do my math right and figure that you would have to fly 7.14 hours per day to get 200 hrs time in 28 days? Are you just flying around in circles for 7+ hours a day? I'm not familiar with these types of operations or time building opportunities, but from this forum I have learned that pay a chuck of money up front is not the preferred way of doing business on the customer's end.

USMCFLYR

Why pay them the whole sum up front? Screw that! If they really want your business they'll work something out with you. I noticed their "fleet" had a couple Seneca IIs and an Aztec... wonder if those are part of the time building package? I doubt it. A "network" of Senecas... is the company like a broker or something?

What kind of quality are they giving you? You and another dude log PIC, in the same aircraft at the same time. Sure it can be done, but really?

I would be a little skeptical.

Well According to their sales manager its nothing but cross country flying nationwide. you fly with a partner and a "mentor" riding in back. You split the flying with your partner everyday about 7 hrs each as PIC, when not PIC youre using CRM as a PNF, of course you cannot log the SIC time being a seneca. Theyre based in Dallas and you basically fly all over the place splitting hotel accomodations or camping out in FBOs.

14hrs flying a day? So I'm guessing they don't do 100hr inspections... do you switch out aircraft every 8 days? Do you do oil changes yourself on the road?

CRM and Seneca don't really go together.

Well they say the senecas are excellently maintained, that unscheduled maintenance is covered by them and what not. They must schedule 100hrs around it all because you need to book about 3 months in advance.

Ummm, did you expect them to say that their Senecas are poorly maintained?

I just wonder that the engine times are. If the aircraft actually flew that much - 14 hours a day... the engines would be TBO'd in 5 months... and the aircraft would have had (20) 100hr's in that time.

It wouldn't suprised me if some mx is just pencil-whipped.

Next time you talk to them, just ask them what the aircraft Total Time, and engine times you are going to be flying.

Usually these time building deals have the pilot-not-flying log PIC as a safety pilot at the same time, and both pilots log PIC. This is a controversial system for logging time, although I do not wish to take sides on it. Another thing about this is the third pilot in the back, another controversial activity.

So the PF would have to be on foggles right (simualted instrument) while the PNF acts as the safety pilot and can log the PIC time too?

This doesn't sound like to much FUN for the guy in back, but what is the controversey? If there is a "mentor" in back and he is not signed for the aircraft or manipulating controls in any way - is s/he not just the adult supervision who has input on decisions made or points out factors?

An interesting aside here would be a flight of multiple aircraft. The flight lead might very well be fully trained and qualified for the position, but not the most experienced member of the flight (flight time, experience, or in this scenario - rank wise) There was a situation many years ago where a flight of 4 Harriers had some trouble. At least one aircraft ended up running out of fuel. The -3 member of the flight was NOT the flight lead, but was the senior ranking member of the flight. In the end he ended up being cited as a casual factor in the mishap because as the senior member of the lfiht he should have stepped in an taken control of the situation.

So....in GA - what *role* would this "mentor" in the backseat be taking?

USMCFLYR

Maybe Insurance reqs? The 'mentor' perhaps MEI? - the whole notion is pretty shady... wouldn't want my certificate (or life) to be on the line, when I can't even reach the controls.

Well the safety pilot logging PIC is an approved FAA method to have two pilots log time on a single-pilot airplane, but I know some airlines that do not accept such time toward their hiring minimums, and in my mind the spirit of the principle has to do with helping a left seat pilot practice doing approaches in VFR conditions for IFR currency or IFR flight training, neither of which really is the point of a twin-engine airplane doing long cross countries for time building purposes. I can only guess why some airlines don't count it, but I'll venture a guess they think it represents a lot of time watching the world go by as the right seat pilot does little as far as flying the airplane is concerned. Another reason may be that as you mention, the left side pilot is supposed to be wearing a view limiting device, but it is a skeptical thing to believe he or she is going to wear a hood for 7 hours at a time as specified.

As far as the back-seater goes, that is also legal as far as the FAA is concerned and he or she may log PIC as well, but his or her participation is obviously fairly limited. And one might argue from a learning perspective that they should not be there anyway, the pilots up front should thinking for themselves. If there is an emergency, then what can they do from the back seat except repeat the contents of the pilots operating handbook? As Ryan says, it has more to do with insurance than with learning. Once again, I do not take sides in it, just trying to point out some of the typical controversies.

Like in a commercial airliner ;)

Insurance could certainly be one example I guess.
But then this MEI in the backseat can't be logging MEI time can he?
General question - if the guy flying (left seat) IS multi-rated, and the PNF is an MEI (right seat), does he get to log that time as instruction time just because he is an MEI - even if there is no true instruction going on?

USMCFLYR

I think they can. I'll have to check though.

Yes but then again, a lot of this time in someone's logbook is a sure sign that some funny (albeit legally correct) logging is going on. Interviewers are not idiots, they know that it does not take 50 hours to give someone a BFR or a checkout, and it is a gray area. If I were an MEI baby-sitting a couple of guys doing their time-building from the back seat purely for insurance purposes, I doubt seriously that I would log any of the time at all.

Well...legal is legal I guess. I mean just because a guy is rated doesn't mean that he can't be getting some instruction obviously like you said, on the other hand I was just asking about the legality of logging the instruction time or if there was something that said that a MEI couldn't be giving instruction unless it was for a specific rating or BFR/IPC (each of which ony requires 1 hour correct?) Very confusing!

You wouldn't log the stuff from the backseat but what would you log if you were sitting in my right seat (I'm ME rated and let's say that I'm current and everything - not a BFR or IPC required) and we are just flying from KSEE to KNLC for a hamburger ;) Would you log MEI time?

USMCFLYR

"I think they can. I'll have to check though."

He can log it as an MEI. It's shady, I agree, but it's legal for him to give instruction from the back seat and log it at PIC as instruction given.

It's certainly legal to do so but there again, what is really going on is he or she is stretching the rules to log more time and the more intelligent interviewer will know how to spot that time. Only a few ratings require long cross countries with dual-instruction. If it's not one of those, then you are basically misusing the rules to log more dual-given when it is clear by reading between the lines that no dual-given is really going on. No law against it, just the ethical question. I know guys who log every minute they are in an airplane simply because they can. It is a blaring yellow flag in my mind at least they are not particularly honest. Rick or DE should have something to say about how the airlines regard it.

But if I let you fly half the time then we could both log 1/2 of the flight time as ME PIC (and the entire flight under total time for each of us?)
DE - I guess back inthe day there was some instruction going on from the backseat of cerain jets that didn;'t have an extra set of controls - but AT LEAST that instructor had a way to get out of the airplane just in case :rolleyes:

USMCFLYR

I paid for some time from this program, here's a few things up front about it. The guy is a complete liar. They have 1 Seneca that is used for the majority of the flying. He also as an aztec and another twin that are in pieces. The maintenance on the airplane is shady. They guy that signs off their maintenance is located in Dallas and the plane was based out of Pompano Beach, FL. The IA on that airplane is a great guy and defiantly knew what he was doing, I just didn't know how much work he was doing on the airplane.

Make sure you have current charts (when I went on the trip the charts were a year old, luckily we were visual almost the entire time). The weight and balance hadn't been reconfigured with a seat out, that was the issue that was making me most nervous.

The actual flying experience was great. I purchased 50 hours and it took about 6 days (we were stuck in LA for a day). The flying was great. The guy I flew with and I are still in touch. you get to know each other when you spend 7 straight days together.

Let me know if you have any other questions

yeah thats what I was afraid of, too good to be true. I figured their "network" of senecas seemed a little stretched. Whats with the mentor though? is he just riding in the back baby sitting? I read their contract they make you sign about maintenance outside the base. The guy on the phone said that maintenance and all is covered, but their contract shows that they will not reimburse u for any outside maintenance or any over time. He said prices are wet, so is your mentor paying for fuel at all the FBOs you land?

As much as I love cheap flight time I don't want to end up with engine failure at take off on every leg. Sounds like fun though flying for days on end, but it sounds like there more under hood than theyre telling me.

I'd be really curious to look at the mx logs....

The seat being out shouldn't be too much of an issue if you're not operating near gross.

What is really going on.....
 

I spoke with them and have an email confirming what they told me which was that I would be flying 100 hours plus riding for 100 hour. 7hr a day flying & 7 hrs a day as a passenger in the co pilot seat. They said if I had my mei I could log the 7 hours a day I was sitting right seat for a total of 200 hrs PIC for the same price. I believe it has already been discussed how the 7 hours a day may be viewed by the airline interviewing you. And I am not here to debate that point.

As a former aircraft owner, here is my issue. How is it possible to fly a twin at $96 per hour wet? It is simple math. Burning 20 gph (I understand you could pull back the power to reduce fuel but follow me for a minute) at say $4.75 per gallon equals $95 an hour worth of fuel. Now add oil, engine reserves, mentor, insurance & did I mention profit (I assume they want to make a profit). How is it possible? What else is that plane carrying? Maybe some cargo they do want to tell you about??? Are you subsidizing the shipping expense for their cargo? Why is that seat removed anyways?

Go to sunbiz.org and look up the company name. Per Florida the company has been dissolved and some more research revealed the former owner ANTHONY E BUDREAU, no longer has a pilots license and has been convicted on a Federal Charge. I have not had time to pull the case but I bet it is all related!!!

If anyone has a chance to pull that federal conviction I would love to see it :-)

And Jeff Britt (guy on the phone) claims to be a pilot yet there is not record of him on the FAA Airman search....

I would really hate to see an honest pilot loose his license and freedom chasing cheap multi engine time. Remember everyone in the plane will go down when the feds are involved..... Of coarse I could be completely wrong but I would love for someone to explain to me how I could be...

They can make money because they have two guys each paying that rate. And by the looks of the website, may be charging the 'mentor' too. If it sounds too good to be true it usually is.

Whether actual flight instruction was taking place or not, I knew of several instructors who would log their time in the right seat as dual given/instruction time even with a multi rated pilot sitting left seat.

This is a shady area, and you can get in trouble. Basically as far as the FAA is concerned you can only log dual when actual legitimate instruction is occuring. For practical purposes this would include....


1. Aeronautical experience per 61 for a rating, cert, or endorsement.
2. Additional training as required to achieve PTS standards.
3. Formal proficiency requirements (FR, LDGs, IPC).
4. School, Club, FBO, or Insurance checkout/proficiency requirements.
5. Airport, Airspace, or route familiarization.
6. Obvious common sense or reasonable training for a good cause such as mountain FAM, night, etc. This would even include a low-time or rusty pilot who wanted a few hours with a baby-sitter. A private pilot could probably make a good case for bringing a CFII along for any IMC operations, since he probably never gets enough actual to stay sharp.

But two current MEI's (especially if they active instructors) who do a XC had better not go there, unless there is a very good reason for a route FAM...ie they are working for Air America and need to avoid the SA and ZSU sites.

For a route FAM, you could get away with it once. But if you keep doing the same route over and over, or do multiple XC trips better stick with Safety Pilot, not dual. SP is pretty much legal for as much as you want to do as far as I know.

While the FAA does not spot-check our logbooks for excessive dual-given, a potential employer might notice blatant abuse of dual instruction.

Per my conversation each pilot is paying for 100 hrs @ $95 an hr and each pilot gets 100hrs at the controls. that is why you each fly 7 hrs a day for a total of 14hrs a day in the air for 2 weeks. So it is not two people sharing the 100 hrs at the controls for 50 and logging 50 as a safety pilot. I don't know what the mentor pilots deal is but I don't believe he is paying.

The following is the email they sent:

"The Airlines are hiring? Where will you be in two years? 500 Hr blocks, $94.00 per hr wet (includes fuel) for PIC multi-engine time. Includes fuel, checkout, charts, insurance. 250 hrs wet @97.00. 100 hrs @ $96.00 per hr wet for PIC multi-engine time. You can't beat our program on price or speed of completion or flying experience. Period. We look forward to flying with you! 15 days or less for 100 hrs under Part 91. All TIME IS PIC TIME, no mickey mouse(safety pilot) time. You buy the time, you fly the time. You fly on YOUR SCHEDULE! We need you to go to the website below, go to the Documents Tab, follow the checklist, the PFD file titled funds is our Band of America account. Once you have deposited $9600.00 usd for 100 hrs or $19,200.00 usd for 200 hrs, and we have your documents we will put you on the schedge. Simple. We are closing out May and working on June! We do offer Commercial Multi Add on training. Call us for pricing! $92.00 per hr wet for military!!

Still pursuing your dream of being a Professional Pilot? Whether Airlines or Corporate we can facilitate your dream. If you hold a Commercial Multi-engine Instrument rating, you can build the "Golden Key" of multi-engine time to get Hired! If you are paying more than $96.00 per hr wet for PIC Seneca 1 or $70.00 per hr wet for C-172, then you are wasting time and money. Remember, I will also pay you 3% of the gross on any leads you send me who fly with APPP. My contact info and website are below, I look forward to talking with you soon. In life, you can have the Cadillac or the Steak knives, its up to you. Do the Math: Each month you don't fly for the airlines = $2500.00 per month x 12 = $30,000.00 per year. Can you afford not to fly with us?

Jeff

Accelerated Professional Pilot Program LLC

Jeffrey M. Britt, Sr. Senior Development/ Sales Manager"

One of their equally shady deals was a BE90 "transition" course that "requires" 100 ME PIC, the cost: $19,995 for 10 hours in a BE90

what a bunch of malarkey

There are other legit multiengine time-building package deals to be had. I wouldn't touch this one with with a 40-foot pole. Ari-Ben, Herb Pello, Skymates, Sheebles, quite a few are out there running legitimate time building operations. This one sounds like a shady operator.

I am about to sign up for some time here...could anyone please enlighten me as to whether i should go with them, or a similar-priced deal where I will have to log half as safety pilot? also, I feel that flying with the mentor pilot might be a better learning experience with flying in weather (when there's t-storms, etc) and flight planning

Multi Engine Time Building Warning
 

BEWARE! Do not use Accelerated Professional Pilot Program or Time Building Central, LLC. Both companies are run by [...]. My 21 yr old son purchased 15 hours to build multi-time and unfortunately prepaid for the full amount. He has only been able to fly 10 hours of the 15 hours. After numerous requests over the past month, Anthony has been unable to schedule him for the remaining 5 hours. He's given him one excuse after another. Today he tells us that all three planes are "down for maintenance" and again he cannot schedule his time. He is unwilling to refund my son's money. Lesson learned, we should have checked out these companies prior to paying him money. The website for Accelerated Professional Pilot Program and Time Building Central LLC lists a Florida and Dallas address. My son flew out of Dallas Executive Airport.
We may not get our son's money back, but we can warn other pilots to not do business with [......].

There is a lot of truth is scheduling difficulties in aviation. Weather, winds, maintenance, slides, instructor's schedules, etc.....
It seems that you are angered that you aren't getting the instruction as quickly as you would like it, but you didn't say that you WOULDN'T get the 5 hours of instruction.
At least this flight school has just shut its' doors and disappeared over night.
Patience might be the key here.

USMCFLYR

I do not believe the company intends to allow my son to fly the remaining five hours. He is a college student at the University of North Dakota and was in Dallas for the summer. He returns to school shortly. I believe he has been trying to schedule the remaining 5 hours for about six weeks. The owner of the company tells our son he will just have to come back to fly the remaining time. That is not practical since his school is 1100 miles away. Our son graduates in Dec. and will go wherever he gets a flying job, so he probably will not be back to Dallas. The company was aware he was here for the summer when he purchased the 15 hours. I think they should refund his money if they cannot schedule the flight time. This has been an expensive lesson for our son.

And he will learn many more expensive lessons before his time in aviation is complete. Welcome to the Jungle!

USMCFLYR

He's also assuming that he's going to have a job once he graduates........... Just saying, there's no guarantee.

Accelerated Professional Pilot Program Inc. and Time Building Central Inc. addressing "Pilot Parent" Please provide evidence of a contract, so we can ratify the above subject matter.

Ratify or RECTIFY?

USMCFLYR

The whole CFI as "mentor" in the back seat logging PIC time is a bit shady to me. I would love to hear what the local FSDO had to say about this.

Yeah, build that multi, there is a pilotage shortage you know! :rolleyes:
Nevermind the furloughs and banruptcies at American, Eagle, PinnaColAba.