Multi Engine time required for Regionals?
 

Quick question:

Let's just say someone wants to be a pilot.

They have a single engine plane to build hours and use it get all the necessary ratings... instrument and commercial, blah blah.

However, is 500 hours in a single engine plane marketable to the regionals? Or do they want multi-engine time? Multi engine time is VERY expensive. So let's say we get the multi-engine rating and put 10 hours in the logbook. So now we have:

500 single
10 multi

Is that better than nothing?

I only see two ways of getting multi time:

1. Pay out of the #%$%# to either rent the plane or sign up for a school like ATP and pay them 50k up front.
2. Buy a multi and fly the #$$%#$ out of it. However, gas and insurance, and maintenance would destroy any man's pocketbook.


But let's make this a hypothetical situation because we all know the regionals are not hiring and if they are it is super competitive. Let's just say the economy is recovering the 65 yr olds are retiring. :-)

David

Right now the average is about 1500 TT 200 ME. If you don't meet the mins, don't even bother. Sorry, that's just the way it is.

I've seen the mins for multi being anywhere from 100 to 300. Competitive mins are probably higher then 300.

You missed option number 3 to build multi time. Get your MEI and teach, then you get paid to fly a multi.

Historically the amount of required ME time varied between 50-500.

When hiring is slow or non-existent (like right now) and a lot of pilots are competing the published mins are typically 200+ ME but actual competitive mins to get hired are like 300-500+. Nobody expects you to buy all that time, you need to get a job as ab MEI or in 135.

When hiring demand is high, regionals will lower ME mins to 100-200, some as low as 50 and will actually hire people with only the minimum. Some bottom feeders even hired those with only a ME rating and the 10-15 hours it took to get it.

However..due to the colgan crash last year congress is trying to make airlines (regionals specifically) place more emphasis on ME time. I would suspect (and hope) that no airline will ever again hire with less than 100-200 ME.

If you are in the training pipeline, I would look ahead to MEI employment opportunities. Keep in mind that schools usually prefer to hire their own grads first, so you probably want to do your training at a school which 1) does ME training and 2) will hire you as a CFI, with the potential to upgrade to MEI eventually.

Unfortunately insurance often dictates that MEI's have 25-100 ME hours as well, so be sure you understand the schools policy on that. You might have to buy some ME time just to get an MEI job.

bummer on the ME requirements...

well, it's still a safe bet to build up hours in a single engine, no?

It is a start. TT is still a requirement that you cant neglect (since you wont get hired without enough of it.)

The good thing is that it sounds like you have a while to go before meeting mins so I would not worry about multi time yet. It will be a while so enjoy the ride, aviation is exciting so try to keep it that way as long as you can.

People have been scrounging for multi hours since the beginning of time, you wont be the first one and certainly not the last. You will figure it out when its time.

Number one way to get multi hours is get your MEI and teach

Number two way to get multi hours is get part 135 mins and get hired on with a place with a twin. It may take longer since you might have to start out in a cherokee six for 500+ hours or so before working your way into a seneca or similar. It is not the fastest road but its a great road full of experiences.

That's the most likely option for me. I have my MEI but no chance of multi students since they all go to the former airline people. For me, I am aiming to get 135 mins and fly freight to build multi time. I would get a competitive amount of multi time doing that (300-500) as opposed to sticking around my school and MAYBE getting a multi student here and there and taking forever just to get 200.

Plus I want to work 135 for some part of my life.

To be honest, not really.

IMO, your ONLY purpose for flying SE airplanes (after you get your ratings) is because you are building seniority at a company which will let you fly twins after you have been there long enough. Commonly you have to work as an ASEL CFI before you can move up to MEI.

Same with regional SIC time...not worth a warm cup of spit, it's just a side effect of waiting for enough seniority to upgrade.

The point I'm trying to make is that you should do your best to get hooked up with an outfit which will allow you to build ME time...especially since congress may mandate that. Don't just build SE time for it's own sake...have a roadmap to a twin.

If you can't get a job at a company which does ME training, plan B would be do ASEL CFI until you have 1200 hours, then go to a 135 outfit as a ASEL pilot. After some period of time, you will move up to twins at which point that ME time will accumulate in a matter of months.

What abbot buying 100-200 of multi time through one of these time building programs. That seems like a faster approach to getting hired. Why waste time once hiring picks up. Be ready to go. If you drop 15k for 200 hours of SIC turboprop time your resume will go to the top. Hiring is about to explode in 2-3 years and you want to be ready. 1000tt and 200 sic 135 turbo prop time will guarantee you an interview. That shows you are ready and can pass 121 groud school in the eyes on HR. If anyone disagrees feel free to chime in

You can't be serious...

Sounds exactly like the Gulfstream International, ATP, Key Lime Air, recruiting pitch. To bad they don't have the pukey smiley face on here...

In the strictest sense... you are correct. Maybe not TOP of the pile, but you will be in a better position than the struggling CFI trying to make ends meet and beg/barrow/plea/threaten for some multi time. Also, yes in 2-3 years you want to have your resume with 1000-2000 hours and 200-300 hours multi. There may be no "pilot shortage" but there will be SOME sort of movement and ultimately some hiring. Even the biggest naysayer wouldnt argue that the expected "shrinkage" of the industry will equal the age 65 retirees.

However, to beg the age old question... do the ends justify the means? How many jobs do you know would someone drop 15K that you could get for free (or get paid to get). Especially ones that have a starting pay usually less than 20k. Some people will drop 15-30k for a degree but the starting salary is MUCH higher than that of a regional airline.

But again in the strictest sense, you are correct.

And esa17, yes - if he wasn't serious places like Gulfstream Academy and Key Lime would not exist. Unfortunately, they are still thriving businesses...

Edit: fjetter beat me to it. I started writing then finished this up a few minutes later.

Does this work for my feelings of "BUYING 135 SIC TIME"
http://sinigami.files.wordpress.com/...-facepalm2.jpg

Pay for training or pay to play or buying your way into a job is not good no matter how you really put it.

BUT...there is a but. Management has zero problems with PFT and would see your 200 hours of paid for SIC turbine time and hire you without reservations.

I suppose the only problem you would run into would be respect. PFT is very looked down upon by 98% of all pilots in the industry who worked their way up from the bottom by whatever means they could. You would not have the respect of any pilots that you would work with for many years for come.

If you did not have a problem with that and had 20K to spare for some SIC time, you would stand a chance at getting hired.

http://images.icanhascheezburger.com...4358935877.jpg

Who sold you that line of BS?

I'm a 100hr PPL and my 6,000hr. CFII/MEI has said basically the same thing. I remain skeptical and work a day job but I hope he's right. I told him basically that if he's right, then he'd be hired way before I would be.

In the meantime I'm slowly working on my Instrument Rating...looking forward to when I don't have to stare at a computer all day long like a schmuck. :)

Guys mins are coming way down 1000/100 will do for now.

:eek: Thats not comming down. Thats where they have been. There is, and never will be a pilt shortage. It's a myth created by people who want to keep their flight schools busy, and by those who run airlines to continue the race to the bottom by paying less than what you can make flipping burgers for In&Out.

P.S. 1000/100 is what they post. Mins. and competetive are, and always have been two completely different things. Just go ahead and give som PFT place your money for some 1900 time. Trust me, it'll make you competitive. http://www.graphicsgrotto.com/emotic...mrolleyes1.gif

BTW, you have a link for a reputable company that has 1000/100 as mins?

To anyone paying attention to this thread, someone said 1000/100 is the mins, and here we have a CFI with 6 times the amount who is still a CFI looking for his first taste of SJS. So, tell me, is 1000/100 still sound like it will get you a job sitting right seat?

Edit to add: I sit left seat, and was hired with 1700TT. But, I don't fly 121. I simply can't afford to work for that cheap.

And with this, the race continues.

Not condoning it but after a couple years in the job it is what I have seen as FACT. Like it or not if you go to the 90 day ATP program and go zero to hero for 80K and then add the RJ sim program they have and then drop another 30K for Gulfstream you are ahead of your peers.

Regionals do not care where you got your hours or what you paid for them or how fast you made it happen, they care that you meet the mins for what they are looking for and will take turbine multi over piston multi.


It is a sad fact that will continue.

With all due respect, you have only worked for Colgan (I think).

Rather than saying "regionals don't care", you might want to say "my regional doesn't care". I most certainly think some regionals care and some pilot interviewers will care. Especially depending on the supply/demand curve at the time the interview takes place.

Now, I must admit, I've been at UPS for 20 years, and never worked for a regional. But I've been around the forums enough to know that certain regionals have different standards than other certain regionals. You can't paint them all with the same brush based on what Colgan is looking for.

[...]

Valid point. I know Colgan does not care and know of a few others.

As much as I would like to think we are one of the few that doesnt care where their applicants came from I just dont think that is the case. I suppose any regional that has a very strong pilot presence running the interviews with the ability to influence decisions it may be a different case.

I have a strong feeling that regionals that would frown upon zero to hero or pay for training are the minority.

I don't think SKW cares as a corporate entity, but our interviews are done by line pilots, and some of them most definitely care. I know a pilot who was declined because the interviewer did not like his professional background.

But I know at least on GIA alumn here. Well, I can't swear that he did pay-to-play, maybe he just worked there at one point.

Accidentally double posted... see below.

... the guy who posted it got a call from 2 regionals and a job. I'm at 1900TT and 300+ ME, trying to get one.

Well to be fair to my CFII, he was furloghed from a regional.

How'd you build up to 1700TT and what do you do if you don't fly Part 121? How did you find the job?

This hiring round, a guy I know got hired on at Eagle with ~1000 and 50 ME. A guy with ~2000 and 500 did NOT get called...

That does seem like a big disparity in experience, but just like many industries, sometimes personality during the interview can go a long way. Age discrimination can be a factor. A confident outgoing 35 year old with low time might be more attractive to management than a nervous 24 year old with more hours.

You know your screwed if he gets recalled right? Hate to be a downer, but thats usually the way it goes.


I worked everyday (yes seven days a week) for two+ years striaght. And now I fly charter in a PA-31. I have no desire to be a 121 pilot. It's to impersonal for me. Perfect example, I fly a gentleman regularly back and forth to Vegas. I get a $200 tip on the way there, and depending on how well he does while he's there, I get a tip starting at $200 on the way back. But, I also spend some of that tip money to make sure the airplane is well stocked for him so he enjoy's his ride. My boss knows my name. He buys me lunch when I'm there around lunch time. I get overnight pay, per-diem, bonuses, etc. When an airplane needs working on, I come in to help out and get mechanics pay(because I want to, not because I have to). I get right seat time in a Lear, and hopefully a Challenger 601 soon. There is lots more out there than airlines. But, the "dark side" is more of who you know than how well you do on any interview. My interview consisted of a few simple questions, and we BS'ed for a while to see if we would get along on extended stays while on trips.

TTOP, Your best friend is flight time. There is nothing more valuable than flight time. It is a simple concept to grasp...

"The only real way of placing a definitive number on how experienced a pilot is (should be) is the amount of you have flown and the insurance providers to airlines know this, that is why the more time you have, the cheaper you could be to insure, and why an airline would choose you over someone with less time (all else equal)"

Now, I don't agree 100% with this idea however, it is the unfortunate reality of our business.

As for the Multi-time bit, Multi-time is a necessity that you will have to get. I do NOT agree with people when they say that SE time is useless (see above) however, if TT is your silver, than ME time is your gold/diamond. It is not a 100% necessity (there are many 135/random flying jobs that just fly SE planes like Cessna Caravans/PC-12's n such) however, you will be much better off with ME time too.

Lastly, the way to get ME time to get your CFI and MEI, and get paid (a little is better then shelling out $$$$$$$$$$$$$$ for it) AND Earn your ME Time. When you do the PFT, you are contributing to the reason why this industry's first step flying jobs SUCK THE BIG ONE for pay and such. Every single first step pilot employer knows that as long as PFT crap continues, then REGARDLESS OF HOW BADLY THEY PAY and how MISERABLE the pilots' QOL is, people will still apply.

Please, for the industry's (and thus, YOUR) sake, DON'T BE THAT GUY!!!

That sounds great! Congrats!

Rather short sighted and "uppity" if you ask me.

"Uppity"? What the hell are you talking about?

Short sighted? Where did you build your time? The military?

In the CFI world it's very easy to get into the ASEL groove and keep building time. I have seen guys with 2500 TT and 10 ME...they are the king of ASEL, usually 141 Chiefs or check airmen. But it doesn't do them any good...they all have to start over somewhere else to get their ME time up.

I'm trying to emphasize that entry-level CFI's should have a plan to get their ME time. If their current job won't provide it, they need to be looking for one that will. This is the hardest part of getting from CFI to 121. It's easy to fool yourself and not worry about the future if you are building ASEL time but it's in your best interest to focus on the real meat of the problem early on.

Knowing what I've spent to get to 100TT and thinking how much more 100+hr of ME time would cost, it seems so daunting at this point. :eek:

How many hours of training does it typically take to earn a MEI?

Probably about 15, depending. Maybe less.

It really depends on what your experience level is when you go to get it. If you just have the minimum of 15 hours PIC, it may take you 15 or more hours. If you happen to be very multi current, very instructor current, and very prepared for the oral part, you can do it fast. I did my MEI in 4.6, which included the checkride, but I already had 140 hours of multi, 50 of which was in the 60 days before I did the training, I had over 1500 hours total time, and 1000 or so dual given, and had been studying and preparing for the ground portion for a couple of months. A guy I work with did it in less than 3 hours, same kind of scenario, but about 700 hours multi time. The average I have heard of is about 8 to 12, depending on how prepared you are before you start.

"Uppity" = I'm better than that for no apparent reason...

And I earned my experience in a a right seat of a 1900 that I got to fly with 10 ME hours prior to getting hired and then quit that job and got hired into a 207 before I got to where I am now, built plenty of ASEL time, if there was "no reason" to do it I guess I'd still be a 1900 FO instead of a 727 FE (the PIC time and remote ops experience is what pushed me up the list). I'm also guessing these 141 chiefs with 10 ME are chiefs of places with no multi airplane. Everyone I know on the other hand has always come up with a way to get multi time while remembering that there are good reasons to fly ASEL, unlike your statement of saying there's no reason to fly SEL unless there's a pot of gold at the end.

Dude, you are out to lunch. Do you have some kind of esteem complex? Nobody is saying anyone is better than anyone else, we are talking about career paths and how to get from point A to point B. If you already got to point B it doesn't really matter how you did it.

But either you got lucky or it was a long time ago...nobody is going to get a turbine ME job with 10 hours ME in the conceivable future.

OK, so I'll modify my advice: Try to make sure your ASEL job will lead you to some ME time, or if you prefer, just be really lucky like aviatorhi :rolleyes:

Love when people eat their own words