alfadog1

I am trying to build my hood time and yesterday went on a 200nm (each-way) cross-country with a non-BFR current instrument pilot sitting right seat as safety pilot. He did have a current medical and according to my read of the FARs that is just fine for VFR flight with me as both actual and acting PIC.

The weather was marginal VFR but we got into our destination OK. Spent the day, had dinner, and left early enough for the 1st half of the flight to be in daylight. The weather was still crappy at the away airport. I think 1200BKN, 3600BKN, 12000OVC. Looking at radar in the FBO it looked like I could get out to the NE for a bit and then turn for home. We were at an uncontrolled field in Class Bravo airspace.

Called clearance delivery and said I would be flying VFR under 2000 to the NE to get out of the mess. Took off, hood on soon after, and contacted departure. Told a squawk code, to maintain VFR, and fly NE. Safety pilot said fly 800 ft. I was not comfortable with that, put the hood up, and went through a break in the clouds to 2000. Nice and clear there, thin layer of broken clouds well below and ceiling 3600 above.

While still in Class B (though probably under the 3000' base by now) departure comes on and asks for my flying conditions. I lift the hood, report in the clear above a layer. ATC asks if I can see the ground. I am wondering if he is trying to get me to say that I have busted VFR. I look down and yes, I see the ground through broken clouds. Remember my safety is not acting PIC, I am. I am not sure if I have busted VFR so I report that I see the ground through scattered clouds below. Departure then gives another pilot an estimate of conditions that may have been based, in part, on my (fudgy) report.

So, knowledgable sorts, my question. And let me first say that if I did not see a way out that I was comfortable with soon after takeoff that I was fully ready to turn around and land. My question is, would/could I have gotten in trouble if I reported that I was above broken, rather than scattered, clouds. Can a VFR pilot legally fly above broken clouds? In Class Bravo (limits are less)? I do feel bad about fudging my report and will try not to put myself in that position again but I was in good vis and the way was clearing ahead, this was the hole to the NE I had seen on the radar.

Thanks

de727ups

The proper thing to say would have been "VFR between layers". You don't need to see the ground to still be VFR.

Ewfflyer

I think you need a nice sit-down with someone who can hold a two-way conversation with you on this situation.

A review of 91.155 might be good to help you follow along with what you needed at various points in your flight.

Also, as a CFI-I, I would like to comment that I think you made a poor decision to put on the hood altogether. You did recover and climb when he said 800', but you shouldn't have put yourself in that position prior to that. I also can't ever recommend doing simulated work in conditions where you don't have a 2000' ceiling or greater. It just complicates too many things and creates a situation that is asking for trouble like this one.

woodfinx

The controller doesn't care, he was just trying to get future information for other aircraft that will most likely be travelling near where you were.

The only time a controller will try to violate you is if a) he is a prick or b) you do something that gets him into trouble.

rickair7777

The general consensus has been that the safety pilot needs at least a third class but does not need a FR or any other currency. He also does not need an instrument rating, or even be rated in category/class.

You do not need to be able to see the ground to be VFR. You can be on top of a layer, or even between layers as long as you maintain cloud clearance. Of course it would be prudent to be sure you have a way out in VMC conditions...

NoyGonnaDoIt

Yes. Even overcast.

The only restriction for a private pilot and above is that the correct cloud clearances and visibility requirements for the airspace be maintained. Student pilots have additional restrictions, such as FAR 61.89(a)(7) which requires student pilots to always have "visual reference to the surface."

On the safety pilot issue, a safety pilot who is not acting as PIC generally only needs a private pilot certificate with category and class ratings and a medical certificate. But there is a potential "gotcha" in your situation - a safety pilot in a flight under IFR is required to have an instrument rating. That wasn't always the case. There was a change in the language of 61.55 in 2005. Safety pilots used to be exempt from 61.55 altogether. After the change (see 61.55(f)(4); if you have a pre-2006 FAR, compare that with 61.55(d)(4)), safety pilots are only exempt from the training requirements. There was a bit of a bru-ha-ha about the change since it wasn't highlighted (or even mentioned) in the Proposed Rule the way these things usually are.

alfadog1

Thanks all for the responses. Good to know I did not do anything illegal

This was a learning experience for me and I made a list of "lessons learned" from it. One was the realization of how dependent you are on the competence of your safety pilot when you are conducting this activity VFR in marginal weather. Obviously it would be best to stay out of MVFR entirely. Since I have my XC hours, I am going to keep the hood work closer to home in the future. Also, coming back at night, I did not allow enough time coming out of the hood to locate my home airport in the lights of the city and set up the approach properly. That led to some non-standard maneuvering that I would have rather avoided. And other lessons.

Thanks
alfadog

NoyGonnaDoIt

As you learned, the safety pilot is not "just" a traffic spotter. Probably why the FAA considers the safety pilot to be at least a SIC. Don't take the wrong lesson from this - the changes in conditions you encountered by going further away, and having to deal with them, is, IMO, what the cross country requirements for all certificate, ratings and operating privileges, all the way to ATP and 121 qualification, are about.Great lesson - The the transition from the clouds to visual conditions is an extremely important skill that we don't get enough practice in and, to some, one of the more dificuly things about IFR flight.

On these flights, the more lessons the better

alfadog1

Oh, I agree. What I meant was trying to simulate IFR doing VFR in MVFR conditions. If I every find myself in that situation again, I will keep it close to home. I am going up with my 3rd safety pilot this weekend and once again cannot file an IFR flightplan. 1st pilot was PP, 2nd not current, this one cannot be PIC in club airplane. I am going to start putting more time in with my instructor next month.

Thanks. Since we were coming in VFR (the ILS was out and I had not prepared for a GPS approach), I should have left a lot more time out of the hood as my safety had not spotted the field and I knew that I had had trouble spotting it at night previously. By the time I spotted it I was too close to descend from 2500 normally and followed tower advice to make spiraling turns and tight ones at that to stay clear of traffic heading for the other active runway. I should have just overflown and entered the pattern in a more leisurely fashion or turned completely around and got set up for the straight in. Obviously, another lesson learned was that I was PIC, not the tower controller.