Is it worth it?
02-21-2012, 07:58 AM
#21
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Apr 2007
Posts: 456
Originally Posted by SkyHigh
So your advise is to "just not think about your future"? I wonder if drug addicts and bank robbers use the same approach? Your subconscious is trying to tell you something. I think you had better listen.
Lots of things are fun in life. It does not mean that it is good for you though.
Skyhigh
Lots of things are fun in life. It does not mean that it is good for you though.
Skyhigh
I think that having a job for 40 - 55 hours per week (more realistically, add in a 45 minute to an hour commute each way in most cases, plus some night and weekend on call here and there) that pays well is a safe life... But if there is something you would much rather be doing, it can be unhealthy for the mind and soul to not be doing it... I am in that situation, and it works, but that's about it. There are weeks that I leave the house at 7am and don't get home until 9pm, every day... Not saying this is the norm, but it can and does happen often. I have a friend (one of my first CFI's, and to this day years later we still drink beers together) who fly's A320's, and wouldn't change a thing. He kind of lucked out I guess you could say, Flight Safety Academy for a year or 2, CFI for another year or 2, regional job, major job... About a 6 year total time frame. He didn't get started flying until his 30's, but did have the Bachelor's out of the way from his 20's. He gets in all reality half the month off, and loves his job and life. Still has a strong passion (but not unhealthy obsession) for flying, even tho the A320 is a "French voting machine" as he likes to put it. I am in my late 20's at this point, 2 months away from my Bachelor's, and I might give the thing a try as well, even with my color vision issues... I've had plenty of time to research and learn about the industry however, and I recommend you do the same. Get the college (in something else that can lead to a backup career) out of the way, and take a few flying lessons on your semester breaks... Try to hold down your job and keep a steady income. Work on college as cheaply as possible - go with a community college for the first 2 years and transfer... something like that. There is a hell of a tax break right now for Undergrad students called the AOC credit. Take advantage, keep the loan to a minimum, and give it a try. You are not too old at 24. Although I had my Associates degree at age 20, I didn't start my Bachelor's back up until I turned 25. If you can work part time (not full time) and take summer classes, you could nail it in 3 and a half years. Worst case scenario you don't end up flying for a living, but now you have a degree and more and better career options.
I don't subscribe to the "get a career, make millions and fly for pleasure instead" camp, because that's not possible in this world unless you were born into money. It's well over 110 dollars an hour to fly even the most beat up planes you can imagine, and it's just not affordable even if you make 50 to 60k a year (which is a stretch to attain even with a degree), and this doesn't count the CFI cost of 40 - 60 an hour. It won't work if you plan on retiring someday that is. It worked in the 90's when gas was 1.25 a gallon, incomes were exactly the same as they are now (if not higher) and houses cost 50% of what they do now (for the same house, just older and more worn down, which never made any sense to me) even after the so called "crash". So if you want to fly, I think unless you are rich, it has to be leading to some kind of income, or at least a break even scenario (like in some donation or charity cases). Flying clubs are also a possibly... But if you are like me, you will be too tired on weekends to even make the trip to the local airport to begin with, and you won't have enough time to do it often enough to be safe and proficient. I'm sure I'll get a lot of flack for this statement.
Last edited by Dan64456; 02-21-2012 at 08:32 AM.
02-21-2012, 09:17 AM
#22
Bracing for Fallacies
Joined APC: Jul 2007
Position: In favor of good things, not in favor of bad things
Posts: 3,543
So getting SE/ME Comm, Instrument, CFI, II, MEI are cheap and getting a flying job that will likely pay well under 50k for years is a better career move than say even a two year medical degree? But owning a Cessna 150 with an Auto gas STC is for people who were "born into money"?
02-21-2012, 09:27 AM
#23
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Apr 2007
Posts: 456
Originally Posted by block30
So getting SE/ME Comm, Instrument, CFI, II, MEI are cheap and getting a flying job that will likely pay well under 50k for years is a better career move than say even a two year medical degree? But owning a Cessna 150 with an Auto gas STC is for people who were "born into money"?
Yea you might get a 150 for 20 grand, but then it's gonna need work, and will still end up costing 80 bux an hour to operate.
About the medical degree - it's not all roses. My girlfriend does that and is always exhausted after her long hours for the 17 bux an hour pay. Yea an RN program is probably a great idea, but like anything else, doing something you are interested in plays a large part in growing within that field. You can make 50k a year within 5 years in aviation, and I predict it will be easier to do that over the next 5 years than ever before (since not many people are doing it anymore). It takes that long in most fields to get that kind of money anyway... worth a shot - life isn't 100% about money though, you need to be enjoying yourself at least a little bit. If needles and bed pans aren't your thing, is 45k to 65k (in time) going to offset that? Depends on the person I guess.
About the cost of ratings...If you can get all of your post private ratings done for cheaper than 50k, that's still on par if not cheaper than most colleges. I'm not gonna say that's cheap tho, because it's not, and I agree with you on that one - especially since you need a degree on top of that cost. It's just a matter of what you want to do for a career.. Some people pay 200k for college to become a secretary making 35 grand a year... then they quit when they have babies (after collecting the maternity leave)... Call me a cynic, and I'd agree with you... lol It's been a tough 12 years.
Last edited by Dan64456; 02-21-2012 at 09:47 AM.
02-21-2012, 11:58 AM
#24
Bracing for Fallacies
Joined APC: Jul 2007
Position: In favor of good things, not in favor of bad things
Posts: 3,543
Originally Posted by Dan64456
"If it flies, floats of !@#$'s, then it's always cheaper to rent" Considering that a 150 would cost as much as an expensive car to begin with, then I'd still say yes. This doesn't even consider the cost of maintenance, overhauls, hanger fees, whatever. Oh, and user fee's are just around the corner too I bet it's only a matter of time. Auto gas will cost 5 bux a gallon within 2 years too by the way. Since most people can't afford an expensive car either, then I'd still say yes. It's reserved for the rich.
Yea you might get a 150 for 20 grand, but then it's gonna need work, and will still end up costing 80 bux an hour to operate.
About the medical degree - it's not all roses. My girlfriend does that and is always exhausted after her long hours for the 17 bux an hour pay. Yea an RN program is probably a great idea, but like anything else, doing something you are interested in plays a large part in growing within that field. You can make 50k a year within 5 years in aviation, and I predict it will be easier to do that over the next 5 years than ever before (since not many people are doing it anymore). It takes that long in most fields to get that kind of money anyway... worth a shot - life isn't 100% about money though, you need to be enjoying yourself at least a little bit. If needles and bed pans aren't your thing, is 45k to 65k (in time) going to offset that? Depends on the person I guess.
About the cost of ratings...If you can get all of your post private ratings done for cheaper than 50k, that's still on par if not cheaper than most colleges. I'm not gonna say that's cheap tho, because it's not, and I agree with you on that one - especially since you need a degree on top of that cost. It's just a matter of what you want to do for a career.. Some people pay 200k for college to become a secretary making 35 grand a year... then they quit when they have babies (after collecting the maternity leave)... Call me a cynic, and I'd agree with you... lol It's been a tough 12 years.
Yea you might get a 150 for 20 grand, but then it's gonna need work, and will still end up costing 80 bux an hour to operate.
About the medical degree - it's not all roses. My girlfriend does that and is always exhausted after her long hours for the 17 bux an hour pay. Yea an RN program is probably a great idea, but like anything else, doing something you are interested in plays a large part in growing within that field. You can make 50k a year within 5 years in aviation, and I predict it will be easier to do that over the next 5 years than ever before (since not many people are doing it anymore). It takes that long in most fields to get that kind of money anyway... worth a shot - life isn't 100% about money though, you need to be enjoying yourself at least a little bit. If needles and bed pans aren't your thing, is 45k to 65k (in time) going to offset that? Depends on the person I guess.
About the cost of ratings...If you can get all of your post private ratings done for cheaper than 50k, that's still on par if not cheaper than most colleges. I'm not gonna say that's cheap tho, because it's not, and I agree with you on that one - especially since you need a degree on top of that cost. It's just a matter of what you want to do for a career.. Some people pay 200k for college to become a secretary making 35 grand a year... then they quit when they have babies (after collecting the maternity leave)... Call me a cynic, and I'd agree with you... lol It's been a tough 12 years.
People can fly for relatively cheap if they save up, have a somewhat decent job, maybe get a partner, and maybe cut out another expensive hobby. I have heard the excuse that flying is too expensive numerous times from people with all kinds of expensive hobbies, toys, cars, etc. No. They CHOOSE not to nix anything to make room for flying. Period. Maybe you can't fly as much, or as far, as as nice of planes as people born into money.
Flying takes sacrifice, especially if you are not born into money. Some of us are. Some are not. I cannot forget the response Rod Machado gave a young man who wrote to him, essentially asking for cheap/short cuts to become a pilot. Rod lit his arse up!! Next month a writer tried to chastise Rod for being mean, and Rod was like oooh heeeell no! Saying that we all make sacrifices, that's part of what makes our profession unique, and that the boy's attitude smacked of entitlement.
It's no secret to the initiated, that flying is extremely volatile. For single folks, that is probably more acceptable than for those who are married, have kids, a home, are involved in a community. My wife has a ton of nurse friends. I know a few as well. I don't know ONE who has lost their job, couldn't find work after college that paid less than 50k, that had no benefits. I personally know many pilots who have been furloughed at least once, some more than twice! When I was instructing I was gone seven days a week sun up til past sun down. Made maybe 14,000/year NO benefits averaging out my years as a CFI. My wife asked me for a divorce. When I suggest people minimize their debt flight training, and to maybe have other career options its not to be mean! I don't tell people to avoid paying for a job or flying for free to be nasty. I would imagine that is why other folks on the forums tell the young bucks, "not so fast....think about the long term reprecussions of your decision."
Last edited by block30; 02-21-2012 at 12:09 PM.
02-21-2012, 01:07 PM
#25
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Apr 2007
Posts: 456
Originally Posted by block30
The good thing about the forums is we can state our opinions, even if we disagree. I like that, and appreciate people don't see eye to eye with me.... I wouldn't necessarily dissuade people from flying professionally so much as consider all options, one of which is flying for fun. No flying isn't cheap, but I do strongly, strongly disagree with the statement coming from money in order to fly for fun. If you fly for fun, you spread costs out over your whole life. However, flight training to become a professional requires a large financial investement in a short period of time, plus probably college. (And it's not because I come from money, my family was a bunch of red necks, and I suppose I am too.).
People can fly for relatively cheap if they save up, have a somewhat decent job, maybe get a partner, and maybe cut out another expensive hobby. I have heard the excuse that flying is too expensive numerous times from people with all kinds of expensive hobbies, toys, cars, etc. No. They CHOOSE not to nix anything to make room for flying. Period. Maybe you can't fly as much, or as far, as as nice of planes as people born into money.
Flying takes sacrifice, especially if you are not born into money. Some of us are. Some are not. I cannot forget the response Rod Machado gave a young man who wrote to him, essentially asking for cheap/short cuts to become a pilot. Rod lit his arse up!! Next month a writer tried to chastise Rod for being mean, and Rod was like oooh heeeell no! Saying that we all make sacrifices, that's part of what makes our profession unique, and that the boy's attitude smacked of entitlement.
It's no secret to the initiated, that flying is extremely volatile. For single folks, that is probably more acceptable than for those who are married, have kids, a home, are involved in a community. My wife has a ton of nurse friends. I know a few as well. I don't know ONE who has lost their job, couldn't find work after college that paid less than 50k, that had no benefits. I personally know many pilots who have been furloughed at least once, some more than twice! When I was instructing I was gone seven days a week sun up til past sun down. Made maybe 14,000/year NO benefits averaging out my years as a CFI. My wife asked me for a divorce. When I suggest people minimize their debt flight training, and to maybe have other career options its not to be mean! I don't tell people to avoid paying for a job or flying for free to be nasty. I would imagine that is why other folks on the forums tell the young bucks, "not so fast....think about the long term reprecussions of your decision."
People can fly for relatively cheap if they save up, have a somewhat decent job, maybe get a partner, and maybe cut out another expensive hobby. I have heard the excuse that flying is too expensive numerous times from people with all kinds of expensive hobbies, toys, cars, etc. No. They CHOOSE not to nix anything to make room for flying. Period. Maybe you can't fly as much, or as far, as as nice of planes as people born into money.
Flying takes sacrifice, especially if you are not born into money. Some of us are. Some are not. I cannot forget the response Rod Machado gave a young man who wrote to him, essentially asking for cheap/short cuts to become a pilot. Rod lit his arse up!! Next month a writer tried to chastise Rod for being mean, and Rod was like oooh heeeell no! Saying that we all make sacrifices, that's part of what makes our profession unique, and that the boy's attitude smacked of entitlement.
It's no secret to the initiated, that flying is extremely volatile. For single folks, that is probably more acceptable than for those who are married, have kids, a home, are involved in a community. My wife has a ton of nurse friends. I know a few as well. I don't know ONE who has lost their job, couldn't find work after college that paid less than 50k, that had no benefits. I personally know many pilots who have been furloughed at least once, some more than twice! When I was instructing I was gone seven days a week sun up til past sun down. Made maybe 14,000/year NO benefits averaging out my years as a CFI. My wife asked me for a divorce. When I suggest people minimize their debt flight training, and to maybe have other career options its not to be mean! I don't tell people to avoid paying for a job or flying for free to be nasty. I would imagine that is why other folks on the forums tell the young bucks, "not so fast....think about the long term reprecussions of your decision."
02-21-2012, 02:51 PM
#27
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Apr 2007
Posts: 456
Originally Posted by SkyHigh
If we are comparing the opportunity cost of an aviation career to the ownership of a Cessna 150, then owning the 150 is fantastically cheaper.
Skyhigh
Skyhigh
Anyway, I still do believe (and maybe it's just wishful thinking) that aviation can make a successful career. I mean let's take my situation for example... I've had a good amount of time to save some coin while working my IT job over the past 7 years... I got my Private VFR 4 or 5 years ago, and am now just about finished my 4 yr degree (BSIT).. My company funded a good chunk of change toward that degree, as did the tax credit.. And it's not an overly pricey school, (and it's 3 block's from my building) so it couldn't have worked out better. Yea I wanted to be flying all those years instead, but I think this worked out better for the long run, because now I got a degree for practically nothing. All of this while surviving the recession (Almost... My department was literally on the list for cuts, and we survived by a thread). So now in my late 20's, with a cheap degree, money in the bank, money in the 401k, and no debt aside from like 10 grand left on a low interest car payment - I could be in a position to knock out my ratings over the next 6 or so months at a fast paced flight school (yea that's another flame bait, sorry)... Anyway I don't see how it's possible for me to get all of those ratings on top of the hours my job takes up - there just isn't enough time in the day, much less mental energy. Everyone is different, but I think I earned myself a training "break" from working a full time job considering that I haven't been unemployed for a single second since age 14... Worked 2 part time jobs (making up over 40 hours per week) thru highschool, my first 2 yrs of college (not just summer, but the entire time), and full time thru my Bachelor's (full time student as well.. night and weekend classes, some online). With no kids or mortgage, I can afford to do the training now. Would I recommend this to someone 18 yrs old with no education (beyond highschool) or career experience in another field? Heck no. I have a backup plan, and it took me many painful years to build that backup plan. But to me, the thought of being a CFI in 6 months, and sticking it out on 2 grand a month for another year or less as a CFI, then hopefully landing a regional job for 30k doesn't seem too bad. If I can get back up to 50k a year within 5 years, then I'd be ok with that, because it's only up from there. I know you can get laid off and don't get lateral job options and all, but I guess I just am risking the bet that it won't happen to me. If it does? That's where my IT career will come in handy. I can pick up a job or side work if I really had to. Sounds like you can pick up a trucking gig if you had to as well. It all depends on how bad you want to fly. I still love the prospect even post SJS, and many years agonizing about throughout my 20's. I guess that's saying something about how important it is to me to at least give it a try.
02-21-2012, 03:25 PM
#28
Line Holder
Thread Starter
Joined APC: Dec 2007
Position: C-150 left seat
Posts: 32
@Dan. That's very similar to my story as well. However I have never been interested in a "desk job". That would be the reason I am trucking right now, but this certainly is not a lifestyle I can endure for any real length of time. I know that flying shares many similarities with trucking(time away from home, living on the road, etc) but I love airplanes not trucks. I certainly have never had anything handed to me and have had to figure things out on my own for the most part. So as I have said, I'm just worried about spending so much money on such an uncertain future.
So here is a new question for those of you flying for a living... Has it become a job yet? Are you "bored" of flying?
I know the answer will vary, just wondering. Thanks again for the help everyone!
So here is a new question for those of you flying for a living... Has it become a job yet? Are you "bored" of flying?
I know the answer will vary, just wondering. Thanks again for the help everyone!
02-21-2012, 03:45 PM
#29
Bracing for Fallacies
Joined APC: Jul 2007
Position: In favor of good things, not in favor of bad things
Posts: 3,543
Originally Posted by Dan64456
LOL, Occam's razor at its finest. I love it.
Anyway, I still do believe (and maybe it's just wishful thinking) that aviation can make a successful career. I mean let's take my situation for example... I've had a good amount of time to save some coin while working my IT job over the past 7 years... I got my Private VFR 4 or 5 years ago, and am now just about finished my 4 yr degree (BSIT).. My company funded a good chunk of change toward that degree, as did the tax credit.. And it's not an overly pricey school, (and it's 3 block's from my building) so it couldn't have worked out better. Yea I wanted to be flying all those years instead, but I think this worked out better for the long run, because now I got a degree for practically nothing. All of this while surviving the recession (Almost... My department was literally on the list for cuts, and we survived by a thread). So now in my late 20's, with a cheap degree, money in the bank, money in the 401k, and no debt aside from like 10 grand left on a low interest car payment - I could be in a position to knock out my ratings over the next 6 or so months at a fast paced flight school (yea that's another flame bait, sorry)... Anyway I don't see how it's possible for me to get all of those ratings on top of the hours my job takes up - there just isn't enough time in the day, much less mental energy. Everyone is different, but I think I earned myself a training "break" from working a full time job considering that I haven't been unemployed for a single second since age 14... Worked 2 part time jobs (making up over 40 hours per week) thru highschool, my first 2 yrs of college (not just summer, but the entire time), and full time thru my Bachelor's (full time student as well.. night and weekend classes, some online). With no kids or mortgage, I can afford to do the training now. Would I recommend this to someone 18 yrs old with no education (beyond highschool) or career experience in another field? Heck no. I have a backup plan, and it took me many painful years to build that backup plan. But to me, the thought of being a CFI in 6 months, and sticking it out on 2 grand a month for another year or less as a CFI, then hopefully landing a regional job for 30k doesn't seem too bad. If I can get back up to 50k a year within 5 years, then I'd be ok with that, because it's only up from there. I know you can get laid off and don't get lateral job options and all, but I guess I just am risking the bet that it won't happen to me. If it does? That's where my IT career will come in handy. I can pick up a job or side work if I really had to. Sounds like you can pick up a trucking gig if you had to as well. It all depends on how bad you want to fly. I still love the prospect even post SJS, and many years agonizing about throughout my 20's. I guess that's saying something about how important it is to me to at least give it a try.
Anyway, I still do believe (and maybe it's just wishful thinking) that aviation can make a successful career. I mean let's take my situation for example... I've had a good amount of time to save some coin while working my IT job over the past 7 years... I got my Private VFR 4 or 5 years ago, and am now just about finished my 4 yr degree (BSIT).. My company funded a good chunk of change toward that degree, as did the tax credit.. And it's not an overly pricey school, (and it's 3 block's from my building) so it couldn't have worked out better. Yea I wanted to be flying all those years instead, but I think this worked out better for the long run, because now I got a degree for practically nothing. All of this while surviving the recession (Almost... My department was literally on the list for cuts, and we survived by a thread). So now in my late 20's, with a cheap degree, money in the bank, money in the 401k, and no debt aside from like 10 grand left on a low interest car payment - I could be in a position to knock out my ratings over the next 6 or so months at a fast paced flight school (yea that's another flame bait, sorry)... Anyway I don't see how it's possible for me to get all of those ratings on top of the hours my job takes up - there just isn't enough time in the day, much less mental energy. Everyone is different, but I think I earned myself a training "break" from working a full time job considering that I haven't been unemployed for a single second since age 14... Worked 2 part time jobs (making up over 40 hours per week) thru highschool, my first 2 yrs of college (not just summer, but the entire time), and full time thru my Bachelor's (full time student as well.. night and weekend classes, some online). With no kids or mortgage, I can afford to do the training now. Would I recommend this to someone 18 yrs old with no education (beyond highschool) or career experience in another field? Heck no. I have a backup plan, and it took me many painful years to build that backup plan. But to me, the thought of being a CFI in 6 months, and sticking it out on 2 grand a month for another year or less as a CFI, then hopefully landing a regional job for 30k doesn't seem too bad. If I can get back up to 50k a year within 5 years, then I'd be ok with that, because it's only up from there. I know you can get laid off and don't get lateral job options and all, but I guess I just am risking the bet that it won't happen to me. If it does? That's where my IT career will come in handy. I can pick up a job or side work if I really had to. Sounds like you can pick up a trucking gig if you had to as well. It all depends on how bad you want to fly. I still love the prospect even post SJS, and many years agonizing about throughout my 20's. I guess that's saying something about how important it is to me to at least give it a try.
02-22-2012, 09:06 AM
#30
Self Employed.
Joined APC: May 2005
Position: Corporate Pilot
Posts: 7,119
In the end
This is the only life you have to live. In the end only you can decide what you value. In my case I always wanted to earn a good living so that I could support a family. No way would I have ever taken step one into this miserable career had I known what lied ahead. I value my friends, family, hobbies and financial security. We did not have APC back then. You have been briefed and know what you are getting yourselves into.
Best of Luck,
Skyhigh
Best of Luck,
Skyhigh
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