Connect and get the inside scoop on Airline Companies

Welcome to Airline Pilot Forums - Connect and get the inside scoop on Airline Companies

If this is your first visit, be sure to check out the FAQ. Join our community today and start interacting with existing members. Registration is fast, simple and absolutely free.


User Tag List

Post Reply
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread Display Modes
Old 11-04-2006, 11:42 AM   #1  
Line Holder
Thread Starter
 
BEWELCH's Avatar
 
Joined APC: Dec 2005
Position: C-172
Posts: 83
Default Glide Slope...

ON THE GLIDE SLOPE THERE IS A WIDE X OR SOMETHING THAT LOOKS LIKE A CROSS, IS THAT THE FAF???
BEWELCH is offline  
Old 11-04-2006, 11:47 AM   #2  
Gets Weekends Off
 
Puckhead's Avatar
 
Joined APC: Oct 2006
Position: CRJ900
Posts: 229
Default

Thats a maltese cross im assuming your talking about and yes that is the FAF on a non precision i believe
Puckhead is offline  
Old 11-04-2006, 12:02 PM   #3  
Gets Weekends Off
 
aero550's Avatar
 
Joined APC: Oct 2006
Position: Citation II
Posts: 315
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Puckhead View Post
Thats a maltese cross im assuming your talking about and yes that is the FAF on a non precision i believe
It's the FAF on a precision or non-precision approach.
aero550 is offline  
Old 11-04-2006, 01:27 PM   #4  
Gets Weekends Off
 
Tinpusher007's Avatar
 
Joined APC: Mar 2006
Position: 320 B
Posts: 1,304
Default

On a non-precision approach, the maltese cross indicates the final approach fix. Glide slope interception on a precision approach (ILS) is considered to be the FAF and is indicated by the lightning bolt.

Last edited by Tinpusher007; 11-05-2006 at 05:54 AM. Reason: Incorrect information
Tinpusher007 is offline  
Old 11-04-2006, 01:37 PM   #5  
Organizational Learning 
 
TonyC's Avatar
 
Joined APC: Nov 2005
Position: Directly behind the combiner
Posts: 4,579
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by aero550 View Post

It's the FAF on a precision ... approach.

No.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Tinpusher007 View Post

On a precision approach (ILS) it indicates the point at which the gilde slope should be intercepted. Glide slope interception on an ILS is the FAF.

No.



A precision appraoch does not have a Final Approach Fix, per se, and the Maltese Cross has no relevance to the precision approach. It depicts the FAF for the non-precision approach.





.
TonyC is offline  
Old 11-04-2006, 02:05 PM   #6  
Line Holder
 
Joined APC: May 2006
Position: EMB-145
Posts: 61
Default

The final approach fix for a precision approach is glide slope interception which is indicated by the lightning bolt lookin thing. This occurs right before the maltese cross which is the FAF for a non precision approach. AIM Chapter 1
BROKE CFI is offline  
Old 11-04-2006, 02:36 PM   #7  
Pro Button Pusher
 
Jetalc's Avatar
 
Joined APC: Mar 2005
Position: A320 Series CA
Posts: 173
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by TonyC View Post
A precision appraoch does not have a Final Approach Fix, per se, and the Maltese Cross has no relevance to the precision approach. It depicts the FAF for the non-precision approach.





.
I disagree with the first part, Tony. The FAF on a precision approach is at the published glideslope intercept altitude. It will never be higher, but it may be lower, if, for example, ATC has you holding at the OM at an altitude lower than the GS Int altitude and they clear you for the approach out of the hold...


Of course a precision approach has a FAF - otherwise how would you be able to comply with the reg that addresses visibility dropping below what is required for the approach (i.e., outside the FAF, at or beyond the FAF)?
Jetalc is offline  
Old 11-04-2006, 02:50 PM   #8  
Organizational Learning 
 
TonyC's Avatar
 
Joined APC: Nov 2005
Position: Directly behind the combiner
Posts: 4,579
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by BROKE CFI View Post

The final approach fix for a precision approach is glide slope interception which is indicated by the lightning bolt lookin thing. This occurs right before the maltese cross which is the FAF for a non precision approach. AIM Chapter 1

The Final Approach Segment for a precision approach begins where the glideslope intercept altitude coincides with the center of the glideslope. There is no defined "point" where this occurs, no Final Approach Fix.


Glideslope Intercept altitude is depicted with a lightning bolt by some AIP providers (NOS, NOAA) and not others (Jeppesen, LIDO).




.
TonyC is offline  
Old 11-04-2006, 03:03 PM   #9  
Line Holder
Thread Starter
 
BEWELCH's Avatar
 
Joined APC: Dec 2005
Position: C-172
Posts: 83
Default

Ok, So If There Is No Maltese Cross On The Chart Where Is The Faf??

Ex:denver Intl Ils 34l Cat Ii And Iii
BEWELCH is offline  
Old 11-04-2006, 03:09 PM   #10  
Organizational Learning 
 
TonyC's Avatar
 
Joined APC: Nov 2005
Position: Directly behind the combiner
Posts: 4,579
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jetalc View Post

I disagree with the first part, Tony. The FAF on a precision approach is at the published glideslope intercept altitude. It will never be higher, but it may be lower, if, for example, ATC has you holding at the OM at an altitude lower than the GS Int altitude and they clear you for the approach out of the hold...


Of course a precision approach has a FAF - otherwise how would you be able to comply with the reg that addresses visibility dropping below what is required for the approach (i.e., outside the FAF, at or beyond the FAF)?


The second half of your post raises the very important point that we must know when we are established on the Final Approach segment. The first half demonstrates that the answer is NOT when we cross a particular point.

I just pulled up the ILS to Rwy 18R at MEM as a "random" example. (If this link doesn't work, go to Fltplan.com and navigate to MEM, and the ILS 18R http://204.108.4.16/d-tpp/0611/00253I18R.PDF )
The glideslope intercept altitude is 3000'. The FAF crossing altitude on glideslope is 1876'. Consider 3 scenarios. In each scenario, ATC clears the pilot for the ILS. When is he established on the Final Approach Segment? In scenario 1 he is vectored at 4000'. In Scenario 2, he is vectored at 3000'. In Scenario 3, he is vectored at 2000'.

In scenario 1, he maintains 4000' until intercepting the glideslope, and then begins down. On Final? No. Not until he passes the glideslope intercept altitude at 3000'.

In scenario 2, he maintains 3000' until intercepting the glideslope, and then begins down. On Final? Yes. And, it's at the same point over the ground as in scenario 1.

In scenario 3, he maintains 2000'. About 3.3 miles prior to intercepting the glideslope, he passes the same point on the ground where the airplanes in Scenarios 1 and 2 began their final appraoch segments. Is he then on the final approach segment? No. It is not until he intercepts the glideslope at HIS altitude that he is on the Final Approach Segment.


In fact, there could be an infinite number of points at which the Final Approach could be commenced on a precision approach - - but not a single Final Approach Fix. Not a Maltese Cross, not a lightning bolt, and not an arrow.





BROKE CFI - - Where in AIM Chapter 1?



.
TonyC is offline  
 
 
 

 
Post Reply
 



Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search
Display Modes



All times are GMT -8. The time now is 11:33 PM.