chrisreedrules

What some of the earlier posters have said is not "negative" in any sense. It is the truth. Many of the jobs that 250 hour "wet commercial" pilots would of had available to them in the past (banner towing, aerial survey, traffic watch, check-flying, etc...) are simply not hiring low-timers anymore for various reasons. And a lot of places want 500TT for those jobs now. Not to mention that most places only want to hire 500TT CFIs with a II and an MEI. And there just aren't that many students around anymore to fill the coffers. Jobs for low time pilots have become extremely competitive and a lot of it is who you know. I have managed to get my foot in the door at a couple places but it took some serious leg-work and a willingness to move anywhere. You need to ask yourself if this is for you because it is more stressful than being a salaried teacher I would imagine. Flying is fun, but everything else about it is not. You have to put up with a lot of BS. If you are adamant about getting to that 1500TT as quickly as possible, I would suggest going to a flight school that has a lot of foreign students that will give you a job when your training is done. I don't know of any in Ft. Lauderdale but I know of several in Daytona and St. Augustine. Best of luck, and make smart decisions. They do count.

chrisreedrules

And Ray, sorry to hear about your misfortune. PM me if you want, I'd like to know how things are going for you.

themagicman00

Wingsgal,
Many of us here have lots of experience from all walks of life; take it for what is worth. I work at flight school out of FXE, I fly 4 hours daily but can fly as much as I want, like many responses earlier, some flight instructors are accumulating hours to reach the new minimum of 1500hrs. My last student got his private pilot license in 4 weeks and 52hrs. As a matter of fact I'm starting with two students today and will fly them everyday for 2hrs each Monday-Friday; if you want to backseat let me know. We fly the Cessna 172 and the Piper Cadet.
Flight instructing is fun, money is not an issue for me, but you will more than likely take a pay cut from whatever you make today.
Have fun.
Chris

dckozak

Here's an idea no one's suggested. If you got the funds to front it, buy an airplane to get your tickets. You will need to give it some serious thought as it does have some pitfalls, but if your sure you want to fly and do it fast, you could save some big bucks getting you set for your post instruction career. A good airplane that would serve you (less the complex part of the CPL) well for your licenses would set you back maybe as little as $40,000. There would be other costs and of course the instructor time, but current rental rates are well north of $100 an hour (including instructor) and this could really save you some bucks. The big risk is selling after your finished, and how much you get for the airplane now that you no longer need it. Something to think about.

JamesNoBrakes

Um, this very rarely works out, if ever. Insurance, maintenance, unplanned maintenance, the inspections, variances in fuel cost and inability to get some of the "special rates", interest you are paying on the plane, possibly having to buy STCs, etc, are all reasons that it usually doesn't work out. Others will come on and say the same thing that I am.

There are good reasons to own an airplane, but very rarely does it make financial sense to do so. Maybe if you were going to use it to give flight instruction later, but then you got to make sure it will be "good" for a while, has the appropriate up to date avionics/capabilities, etc.

Heck, how many businesses even own their own planes in the first place? Not as many as you'd think.

dckozak

No argument. There are pitfalls. But, if you do it fast, which I understand the young lady wishes to, and avoid multiple annual inspections, and buy the right airplane (right priced C-172 inst capable) and most importantly at the right price so the sell helps subsidize the expenses. Yes there are risks, but paying $150+ an hour dual for the the POS I see at the local airport, well I think there is plenty of room to do better.
No doubt one should go into this with eyes wide open regarding risks. But if you can afford it (and the bio of this woman suggested she might) I think it could save thousands of dollars over the rental route. Again if you buy, you better be onboard otherwise you own something you can't use. I definitely think this is a good option for some but not most. If you got the money, know for sure you want to fly, do your homework and crunch the numbers it will work. Hell if you buy an airplane on the cheap ( Lot of airplanes looking for homes and some sellers are most desperate than others) you could really lower your cost of training. Again the risks are there. No guts no glory.

phalanxo

Heh, I remember your username from a discussion we had back when you were first starting ATP and bright eyed and bushy tailed about the program and I said "Just wait Ray, you will see..." It sounds like you have now seen Working for crap wages is not paying your dues, there are CFI gigs out there that pay decent, still have multi, still have flight hours, health benefits, and days off. Sure, it's international students trying to kill you every day, but that's the gig, as they are the only ones training.

Ray Blaszak

For now I am not even flying. I am working a regular job. Don't get me wrong ATP was a great school to train at but I would never consider actually working there. I was treated better in the military than ATP treats it's employees. As a matter of fact I think that prisoners are treated better. Every instructor minus a few was top notch. Most of them knew there stuff although it wasn't uncommon for some of them to say well this is how ATP does it. Again I don't regret my decision but I certainly wouldn't lead all my friends to the front door to get their ratings/education there. Bottom line is I disagree with about 95% of their business practices which I am sure most realistic and common sense people would agree with.

JamesNoBrakes

I don't know if you've ever done the math, but I have (I have a program that calculates it). Remember to figure in tie-down/hangar costs, insurance-not just that you are paying for it-but that as a low time pilot it is extremely expensive and more ratings and hours lowers that-all more money you have to spend in the first place, lubricants and other miscellaneous things like filters, etc. You are eventually going to sell it, so you get to subtract that and come up with your true operating cost, but here's the real kicker:

An airplane's "operating cost" isn't much different than what you pay to rent it. There is no mystery here, and usually no FBO or owner making money hand over fist. The "profit" associated with aircraft rental is very small. So, you may be saving $5-10/hr, it's not a lot. Instructor rates have their own profit combined into the rate, but that is separate from aircraft rental obviously. The FBO mechanic probably offers a little better rate for the work done on the FBO planes as well. This comparison also assumes that you put a lot of hours on the plane. If you don't, that operating cost goes up pretty significantly, so that FBO plane that is getting a few hours in a day may again have an operating cost that is only slightly higher than yours that does the same thing (the profit), but if you don't operate it in the same way, that operating cost goes up significantly, and in reality you are paying a lot more to fly per hour. As an owner, it's hard to match these things. And then what do you do while your plane is down waiting for a part, getting an annual, or whatever?

I just ran the #s for a $25,000 plane (likely a C150 type, although there are a few sorry 172s sometimes floating around for near that much, likely in need of serious expensive work). The cost per day comes out to about 67 bucks whether you fly it or not over a year, and assuming you put 200hrs on it in a year (unlikely for a student usually, but if someone is trying to slam all of their certs out, possible I guess) about $120/hr. That goes up if you fly it less, and I assumed a regular tie down, not a hangar. Insurance, financing, estimated sell-off price, etc is all included. I didn't include an engine overhaul, just typical annual costs, gas at 5.3 or so/g, etc. That's about right for a C150. Now go look at what an FBO charges. It's not dramatically more, if it is more.

The theme here is that rentals are there for a purpose. If it was more economical to own an plane, everyone that goes through training would do so, people have no problem taking out $50K+ in loans to just flight train obviously, so it wouldn't be a stretch to finance a plane if it worked out. It doesn't work out though and the difference between owning it and renting it is usually on the order of a few bucks, IF everything goes right and you fly it fairly often.

Interestingly, I had a buddy that got lucky and sold a 150 for a little more than he paid. He put some time and work into it (was ****ed at one point when he did an annual by himself under the direction of a mechanic and the mechanic ended up charging him nearly what he would have charged to do it by himself in the first place), but it wasn't something that he bought to be "economical", it was something for fun. So, you might get lucky, but I don't recommend buying a plane for flight training, UNLESS you do so realizing that it's probably not going to work out and even if it does on paper, unforeseen aspects may still push it to the "unfavorable" side. It's just best to know what you are getting into.

I'd like to know how it works out that one could save "thousands of dollars"?, because I've failed to see how that could happen, except in some extremely rare cases.

atpwannabe

To the OP:

I don't think that there is anything negative that anyone has said so far in terms of addressing your question(s). We all have taken different roads and have had differing experiences that I believe would influence our opinions.

Having said that, and being 50 yrs old and just starting flight training myself, go the fast-track. Gone are days of potentials (students or people wanting/having a desire to learn to fly), that are sitting around your local FBO with wads of cash sticking out of their pockets......so to speak.



atp