Really?
Maybe our definitions of a "good stick" are different?
10 hrs huh? I can't imagine what you saw in all of 10 hours to make such a call.
I flew with a guy on his first two flights in a small airplane and could tell that he seem to have have the ability to grasp a concept pretty quickly, had good hand-eye coordination, and a real desire to listen and learn - absorb the experience. He turned out to be what I would call a good stick (as a student) after numerous checkrides and accomplishing, no excelling, at some pretty challenging flying with only twice the time of this student of Pearls.

My definition is probably different. In my opinion, I doubt this guy has seen enough to have experience anything to make him a good stick. He doesn't sound like the type of pilot, who since earning his Private, has been out finding challenging environments to test his skills or actually spends the time or money to go out and practice any of the perishable skills of a less than 100 hr private pilot, and certainly doesn't seem to be displaying "good pilot" skills if he is having trouble intercepting a localizer and then taking a peek outside to get back on course.

Maybe this guy has average flying skills compared to other students and what sounds like a below average attitude. Hopefully PP's sit down talk with this young man will open up his eyes; whether it is the instructor's eyes or the student's eyes, well.....we'll have to wait and see after PP gets back to us with an update ;)

USMCFLYR

Yes, we are using different definitions. I was talking about stick and rudder skills- making the airplane do just what you need it to do. You seem to be talking more about his overall qualities- decision making, experience etc.

By your definition, yes, 100hrs may be a bit early to make that call, and what we know of this student doesn't suggest that he'll ever meet your definition.

Despite what most flight school owners will say, not everybody can fly.

I was talking about both - but especially the complete package.

I agree with your last sentence wholeheartedly - though in the civilian world isn't it true that as long as the money keeps flowing and the student doesn't look like he is going to kill himself or break an airplane - that there aren't actually 'up or out' points in the training process? It seems that there are stories out there of certain students who are perpetual students - drifting from instructor to instructor, 3 times the minimum (or even average) flight hours for whatever certificate or rating they are training for, always delaying the checkride for various reasons, etc....?

USMCFLYR

From OP: "After all I was paying good money to learn this all so important skill and cheating was last on my agenda. I believe I have a student who is a cheater on the ILS. The student is in his early 20s, rich, dad pays for flight training, and always I mean every single day he is 10-15 minutes late for his appointment."

From the above, it sounds like this kid doesn't really want to be there. Does HE want to be a Pilot, or is his Dad pushing him to be a pilot?

If you show up late, you are telling your instructor you don't respect them, or their time, and you are not interested in being there.

If I were you, next time this kid shows up late, I'd say to him, "Don't waste MY time, and your DAD's Money!"

In fact, you may want to have a talk with his dad, let him know what's going on, maybe he can smack some sense into him.

Lol good times I had a white bed sheet over my head when I was flying with the ends on top of the dash. Held down with my logbook .

:eek:

When I read that, it occurred to me that if taken out of context, some groups may take exception to that...:D

Update:
1.The dad and I had a talk. He is well aware of his son's incompetence.
2. I will bill him for being late. I started today, he was 10 minutes late and .2 went on his bill.
3. I will be occasionally using a hood for which he agreed.
4. I will no longer spoon feed him.
5. I can no longer tolerate his tardiness so I will have to be more firm with him, if not I am actually considering of canceling a lesson in which he was late in the future.

It is a working progress. In a perfect world sure I would love to get rid of him. The reality is that there are and will be students like him in any CFIs career. I am in the opinion that we as CFIs should find ways, sometimes creative, to work such things out. After all we are known to have a great deal of patience. But honestly in this case it is running out in a hurry.

You are the CFI holding the reins and you are responsible for correcting the bad behavior early on! Remember the law of primacy - the habits we learn first stick! I don't think addressing the issue this late in the game will help because he's accustomed to breaking the rules.

I made the same mistake with my very first instrument student. He was regularly late and didn't study or do his homework, but he was a good stick and fun to be around, so other than the occasional reminder to work harder, I let it slide.

I waited too long to confront him, and when I did, he lost his **** and completely blew up. We had an argument, but I eventually got him to apologize and admit he was wrong. After that, he no-showed for the rest of the semester, so I charged him and failed him for the course.

He accumulated so many absences and tardies over the next year that he dropped out of college completely.

According to his Facebook he's a "Customer Service Representative" at Denny's. The irony is that he's home every night and probably makes more money than I do, but that's beside the point :cool:

The harsh reality is that some people are pricks, plain and simple, no matter how much we want to like or help them. They do not care about success or working hard, and will disrespect you and waste your time. It is not your job to be friends with these a**holes - it is your job to identify them, discipline them, and, if you can, teach them. Good luck.

You mentioned he tracks great once established (inside the marker). It seems his trouble (on the ILS) is with the intercept. Try intercepting VOR radials within 10 miles of the staion. Do it over and over again. Use radials with and without a crosswind. Point out the relative motion of the needle and how it relates to how quickly he must adjust heading. Show him what happens if he simply parallels the course and what to do if the motion stops but the needle isn't centered. Point out there maybe wind variation as he decends and how to handle it. Once he gets good at it he won't want or need to cheat. As for showing up late, either charge for your time waiting or show up 30 minutes late yourself.

You have to "get real" with them and tell them what the performance will cause, in terms of checkrides, jobs, and just outright survival. Some of them can do it, it's just a matter of inspiring and motivating them to do so. For many of them, this is the most they've ever performed in their life, even though it's well within their capability. Be careful and watchout for dogmatic statements and teaching. I've had to demo entire approaches to students to show them the real management of the tasks, when they should be doing things, when they shouldn't, where they should be looking, what to ask for, and so on. I required my CFIIs to do it just for this purpose. Not that we can't teach while the student is flying, but many of them never really get the concepts and are constantly making it harder on themselves, twisting dials and pushing buttons in turns, not requesting time or lower altitudes, asking for position/radar information, being able to task-shed with navs and know what is really important and what is "nice to have", never really getting the concept of using the attitude indicator, and so on. You'll see these situations where you constantly say the "right things", and if quizzed or asked the student will give the "correct answers", but you can watch them do the task in the airplane and see the obvious disconnect, in that it just doesn't happen and can't be applied.

If they aren't grasping these concepts and taking this stuff to heart, you often have to "stop" training until you can get some kind of commitment to improve. Remember that these are usually young people who have never done anything where it was solely their performance that determined a life and death outcome. You are not trying to make a negative implication here, but trying to motivate them to perform to what the situation requires.