Thanks everyone for the prompt replies! I will be trying out these tips and I will report back...what a cool community...

Mike

 

The VSI is the steep turn devil instrument.

1. Look outside
2. Don't fight the plane, use some trim
3. Deep breath, Relax, no white knuckles

If you are having trouble looking outside, get your flight instructor to tape a sectional over the panel. Get used to the position of the horizon vs. the airplane, both left and right. Remember newtons laws, the airplane will stay where you put it unless it is acted upon by an outside force, so take the outside forces away. Get to the AOB, trim it out and just make small corrections from there. Once you can do that, then you don't have to work so hard. Ease up on your grip and relax. When you are relaxed and not muscling the airplane, you can tell better what you are doing with the plane.

 

For once I would have to disagree with Rickair. Airspeed is a much better instrument for primary info on pitch changes. You'll see a climb or descent much faster. If you try following the VSI in any maneuver, including straight-and-level you'll be chasing it all day. It takes a moment for the altimeter to sense a change in pressure and it takes a couple seconds for a VSI to register the rate of change.

 

I was under the impression that the VSI will show right away whether you are climbing or descending, and that it takes a few seconds to show at what rate you are climbing or descending.

 

That is how it works for me. The INITIAL movement of the VSI needle is very quick and larger (more noticeable) than the ALT or AS needles. It does take time to stabilize on the actual VS, but that is irrelevant for steep turns. If you adjust control inputs when the VSI starts to move you will not see significant movement of the ones that count: ALT and AS.

But my technique is non-standard, more instrument oriented.

 

Start out with a stable aircraft. Get your speed where you want it, get on altitude and trim it up for hands-off flight. Once you're ready for your steep turn, I recommend rolling into the bank fairly quickly. Don't be timid and milk the bank in thinking that is going to help you maintain altitude. You don't have to go full aileron, but roll in so that you're at 45 degrees within 3 seconds (don't forget to lift the wing and clear first!). While you're passing about 30 degrees of bank, increase power 200 RPM and give the trim wheel 2 turns nose-up as rickair said above. When I was teaching, I used to show my students this "trick" and they were amazed when I took my hand off the yoke and the airplane flew +/- 100 feet by itself (if not +/- 50 feet!). When you stair step the bank and take too long getting to 45 degrees, you now have two things to worry about at the same time; pitch AND roll. You want to limit the amount of axis you've got your left hand trying to control at the same time and let the airplane (trim) do the work for you. The airplane flies just fine without you. You're just there to change its attitude every once and a while. This should get you pretty close to a nice, stable steep turn. From there, fine tune with power and trim.

My own personal liking was to have the plane trimmed *slightly* more nose-up than I needed because I felt more comfortable controlling altitude by putting a little forward pressure on the yoke than I did having the pull, but again, that was my technique.

Other words of wisdom: Don't obscess on the attitude indicator while rolling in and out of bank. Set what you think is 45 degrees by looking outside. It's not rocket-science. If you passed geometry class in middle school, I'd be willing to bet you can set your bank within +/- 5 degrees with your AI covered. It's pretty easy to see what 45 degrees is by looking outside. The most common mistake private pilots make with just about every manuever is LOOKING INSIDE TOO MUCH. For some reason I like using the altimeter as my primary pitch instrument while trying to maintain altitude. It gives me pretty much instant feedback on where my pitch is going and where it should be. I can see my rate of climb by how fast my altimeter needle is moving. I don't need a VSI for steep turns. If I'm shooting an ILS, that's a different story. There are hundreds of techniques, but your CFI should definitely be teaching you the basics and not telling you to "stay ahead of the airplane".

Good luck.

 

I agree with just about everything mentioned above. Although, I typically agree with Rickair, I am not a big fan of using the VSI. Steep turns are supposed to be a visual maneuver; just like the rest of the Private Pilot maneuvers (besides the req. instrument work).

I noticed that altitude deviations were always the result of poor entry into the turn. Rudder usage is imperative to successful completion of the maneuver. Remember left turning tendencies? If you're rolling into a turn to the right, those tendencies will tend to pull the airplane into a climb since "left" is now 45 degrees up and to the left. You really need a good amount of right rudder rolling into a turn to the right. In a turn to the left, the need for rudder is not as amplified since the airplane is more willing to roll in that direction. However, when rolling out from a left turn the need for right rudder will be just as important as it is for rolling into any other right turn. Long story short, control the left turning tendency and it, along with all of the previously posted advice, should help control the altitude deviations.

I did a lot of instructing in a 180 HP 172 and the need for rudder was obvious. I know the need is still there for a lower HP 172 but it may not be as much. If you have an option to fly both at your club/school, see if you notice the difference. There definitely is one!


Good luck.
PS. The best advice from above was to have your CFI cover up the instruments; it will FORCE you to fly visually.

 

everyone gave good tips but dont forget that in a turn your stalling speed will increase as much as 85-90 kts clean plane.
so watch for airspeed, and keep the turn coordinated "step on the ball".

 

Kaos mentioned stepping on the ball which is, as I mentioned earlier, an important element of the maneuver. I thought I'd add that if your CFI covers the instruments, there won't be a ball to look at so make sure you watch for the subtle movements (yawing) of the spinner in relation to the horizon and correct them with...rudder.

Also, to clarify, I think Kaos meant that the stalling speed could be as high as 90 kts in a clean config. It's been a while since I've flown a Cessna but 90 kts seems kind of high in a clean config and 45 degrees bank. Perhaps that may be more accurate for 60 degrees bank.

Which if you're comfortable, may not be a bad idea to try (WITH FLAPS)! If you can get good at controlling your altitude in a 50-60 degree bank, 45 will be a lot easier! Don't try it as a solo student pilot. Ask your instructor to demonstrate a few at 60 degrees and then decide if you'd like to try one. A 60 degree bank turn is not required training for the Private but it is a very effective learning tool. You're instructor should already realize the importance of teaching or at least demonstrating maneuvers above and beyond what is required. Teaching only the bare minimums is not fair to the student.

 

well you dont need 60 degrees bank to have 90 kts stalling speed its enough that the weight of the plane is more than the one in the POH. A good rule of thumbs for the light planes is that the stalling speed increase half of the percentage of the total load (the total load is equal at weight plus manuever load) so for example if your total load increases 100% (as can happen in a 60 degrees bank with the weight as POH) the stalling speed will increase 50% (so for a light clean plane usually from 60 kts to 90 kts).
its important to enter the turn coordinated but its more important to roll out coordinated (use always ailerons and rudder together dont try to correct only with rudder).
if the turn looks like getting sour push the stick forward first and then adjust the ailerons, dont try to fix the turn only with ailerons correction.
when you trim the airplane before entering the turn you trim for an angle of attack, so once you are in the turn the airplane wants to keep the AOA you trimmed it means she will go faster, if you pull back the stick up to the same speed you entered the turn that should keep you also level (if it doesnt, work slightly on the throttle) this will reduce your instrument scanning work.