Buying an aircraft for timebuilding
02-08-2014, 11:21 AM
#21
Flying Farmer
Joined APC: Jul 2006
Position: Turbo-props' and John Deere's
Posts: 3,160
Originally Posted by deftone
I spoke with a guy today about taking a 50% ownership in his '59 Bonanza M35. New paint, glass and interior. 300hr since last overhaul and he is an A&P. Seems like a good deal for $24k
Seems like it might tick a lot of the boxes mentioned in this thread, although I read somewhere that a Bonanza can be a tricky aircraft for a new pilot.
Seems like it might tick a lot of the boxes mentioned in this thread, although I read somewhere that a Bonanza can be a tricky aircraft for a new pilot.
Here's my recommendations, take it or leave it. Strictly about building time, because honestly no one knows what the job market is going to need when you get to the point where you qualify.
Fly slow, fly at night, and fly far. This is bang for buck flying. Night time is needed , XC time is needed, distance is not a requirement.
So by going slow, your efficiency per hour increases, less fuel purchased, more in your pocket at the end of this. Hunt out cheap self serve fuel (and almost all of them are 24hrs). Don't always go to the same place either, gain experience by gaining experience!!!!
Night flying is great, things are the same, just different! Mix it up, go out for dinner, take friends, take a lady, anything! Find another pilot looking to build time, do some safety pilot work so you can legally split it.
Less landings per hour means fewer gear swings, less tire and brake wear. Not saying you shouldn't knock out a few crosswind landings when the opportunity shows itself, but limiting them per hour will pay off.
02-08-2014, 01:52 PM
#22
Line Holder
Joined APC: Jul 2013
Position: Greasy side up
Posts: 45
Originally Posted by Panzon
A couple of thoughts:
> The first annual on a plane is always expensive. On a Warrior or 172 it can easily run to $3,500 because your A&P will find lots of small things that need to be fixed or replaced. If you need to replace a radio or transponder the bill might double.
> Plane prices are continuing to fall. You may have to take a haircut when you go to sell the plane.
> Some planes develop expensive problems. Are you prepared to accept the risk of having to replace a vacuum pump, alternator, starter, or jug? Those are all "cheap" problems. Are you prepared to pay for a top overhaul or a major?
> Is building time quickly a priority? If yes, how big a problem will it be if your plane is down for three months while the engine is topped?
The advantage to using club planes is that the financial risk associated with things breaking is spread out amongst the club members, whereas you bear all the risk if you are the sole owner.
If you buy your own plane you bear all the risk of having the plane down for MX, but if you belong to a club your risk is much lower.
I agree with the earlier comment that putting a plane on leaseback can be a cost effective way to defray your training costs. However, it has its own set of potential problems, and you will need to do the trade off between extra complications and potentially lower training costs for yourself.
I also agree with earlier posts about night and instrument time: get as much as you can.
If you can, do as much of you PPL at night as you possibly can. This will help you get more comfortable using instruments. Then start working on your instrument rating, again, doing as much as you can at night or in true IMC. Once you have your IR you can start time building. Do as much as you can at night until you have at least 75 hours and 25 landings (to meet the ATP requirements). If you get more night time that will be a bonus.
Barring a minor miracle like someone offering up his plane for use free, my guess is that you will be best served by joining a club with multiple planes.
> The first annual on a plane is always expensive. On a Warrior or 172 it can easily run to $3,500 because your A&P will find lots of small things that need to be fixed or replaced. If you need to replace a radio or transponder the bill might double.
> Plane prices are continuing to fall. You may have to take a haircut when you go to sell the plane.
> Some planes develop expensive problems. Are you prepared to accept the risk of having to replace a vacuum pump, alternator, starter, or jug? Those are all "cheap" problems. Are you prepared to pay for a top overhaul or a major?
> Is building time quickly a priority? If yes, how big a problem will it be if your plane is down for three months while the engine is topped?
The advantage to using club planes is that the financial risk associated with things breaking is spread out amongst the club members, whereas you bear all the risk if you are the sole owner.
If you buy your own plane you bear all the risk of having the plane down for MX, but if you belong to a club your risk is much lower.
I agree with the earlier comment that putting a plane on leaseback can be a cost effective way to defray your training costs. However, it has its own set of potential problems, and you will need to do the trade off between extra complications and potentially lower training costs for yourself.
I also agree with earlier posts about night and instrument time: get as much as you can.
If you can, do as much of you PPL at night as you possibly can. This will help you get more comfortable using instruments. Then start working on your instrument rating, again, doing as much as you can at night or in true IMC. Once you have your IR you can start time building. Do as much as you can at night until you have at least 75 hours and 25 landings (to meet the ATP requirements). If you get more night time that will be a bonus.
Barring a minor miracle like someone offering up his plane for use free, my guess is that you will be best served by joining a club with multiple planes.
02-08-2014, 11:31 PM
#23
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Oct 2009
Position: CFI/II/MEI
Posts: 481
Originally Posted by deftone
The ultimate goal would be airlines, although I was not planning on knocking out 1500hours in a warrior then applying to the airlines
The initial goal is pretty much what Aviator stated, get PPL then use it to build time for IFR and commercial license. Then hopefully get a start flying professionally, either selling it on at this point, or if funds permit, keeping it and flying extra hours when I could. If it took me a while to get my initial hire, then I could also use it to build hours following commercial, which is where my concerns come in. With a large number of hours flying XC mainly for just hours building, would that be frowned upon?
If I ever made it to regional, would they frown upon having, say 500 of the 1500 min hours built up in this manner? Would a pipeline/cargo/whatever firm care if a larger percentage of my hours got me to their mins? Say 300 out of 500?
The initial goal is pretty much what Aviator stated, get PPL then use it to build time for IFR and commercial license. Then hopefully get a start flying professionally, either selling it on at this point, or if funds permit, keeping it and flying extra hours when I could. If it took me a while to get my initial hire, then I could also use it to build hours following commercial, which is where my concerns come in. With a large number of hours flying XC mainly for just hours building, would that be frowned upon?
If I ever made it to regional, would they frown upon having, say 500 of the 1500 min hours built up in this manner? Would a pipeline/cargo/whatever firm care if a larger percentage of my hours got me to their mins? Say 300 out of 500?
With that being said, if you think you will get yourself your commercial, and then time-build up to 500 hours and then walk into a cargo/pipeline patrol/charter job, I'm going to say that is unlikely. Because A) there aren't many 500 hour pilots getting hired at those jobs these days, and B) you wouldn't have any aviation employment history that other applicants might have.
02-09-2014, 05:29 AM
#24
Runs with scissors
Joined APC: Dec 2009
Position: Going to hell in a bucket, but enjoying the ride .
Posts: 7,722
You could use the airplane to get your CFI, and then use it to instruct in.
Your insurance will go up of course.
I know a guy who uses his C172 for Civil Air Patrol flying, they pay for his gas.
Your insurance will go up of course.
I know a guy who uses his C172 for Civil Air Patrol flying, they pay for his gas.
02-09-2014, 05:43 AM
#25
New Hire
Joined APC: Jan 2014
Posts: 6
hey deftone. I just passed my commercial a couple months ago. Right after I finished my PPL I purchased a warrior with a basic six pack IFR panel. I did exactly what you are thinking about. Over the last 9 months I flew the warrior about 275 hours and completed the instrument and commercial tickets. Planning to take my CFI in about a month. I spent about $36k on the warrior and did have some repairs along the way, but I recently calculated every penny I have spent flying and I saved about $5000 having my own plane. I am actually trying to sell it at the moment so assuming I can sell it for approximately what I spent on it my advise is find a cheap warrior that has a basic set up and fly like crazy! If you buy smart and fly it a lot it will safe money compared to expensive rentals that can be hard to book when you need them. Obviously, there is risk, if the engine were to blow up next time I fly it and I am forced to do an overhaul, I will have lost significant cash because I will never be able to sell high enough to make back the cost of the overhaul….hope that helps
02-17-2014, 09:34 AM
#27
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Jul 2011
Position: Airbus button pusher
Posts: 2,447
Originally Posted by deftone
I spoke with a guy today about taking a 50% ownership in his '59 Bonanza M35. New paint, glass and interior. 300hr since last overhaul and he is an A&P. Seems like a good deal for $24k
Seems like it might tick a lot of the boxes mentioned in this thread, although I read somewhere that a Bonanza can be a tricky aircraft for a new pilot.
Seems like it might tick a lot of the boxes mentioned in this thread, although I read somewhere that a Bonanza can be a tricky aircraft for a new pilot.
02-26-2014, 01:17 PM
#29
Banned
Joined APC: Feb 2007
Posts: 461
I have a few comments for building time on the cheap.
What is available to you is going to vary greatly.
Is MoGas available in your area? It will cut the cost of fuel by half if your plane STC'd for MoGas.
Is there an A+P willing to work with you on inspections?
Some A+P's will allow you to work on the plane, inspect your work and sign it off for a reduced price. It's also EXCELLENT experience for a new pilot.
Hangar and tie down can also be expensive in your area.
Buy an early model C-172 with mechanical flaps. The early models have fewer AD's
Fly long x-countries at 55% power. You're building time here.
A Cherokee variant is ok too, but I'd skip anything with a constant speed prop or retractable gear. The inspections go up by 100% easily.
Yes, you'll need complex and multi time, but these are easy enough to rent.
You can always acquire a multi engine airplane if 500multi becomes important.
I'd suggest building multi time with one of the schools in the flyover states. They are often 1/2 the price of the big city schools.
What is available to you is going to vary greatly.
Is MoGas available in your area? It will cut the cost of fuel by half if your plane STC'd for MoGas.
Is there an A+P willing to work with you on inspections?
Some A+P's will allow you to work on the plane, inspect your work and sign it off for a reduced price. It's also EXCELLENT experience for a new pilot.
Hangar and tie down can also be expensive in your area.
Buy an early model C-172 with mechanical flaps. The early models have fewer AD's
Fly long x-countries at 55% power. You're building time here.
A Cherokee variant is ok too, but I'd skip anything with a constant speed prop or retractable gear. The inspections go up by 100% easily.
Yes, you'll need complex and multi time, but these are easy enough to rent.
You can always acquire a multi engine airplane if 500multi becomes important.
I'd suggest building multi time with one of the schools in the flyover states. They are often 1/2 the price of the big city schools.
02-26-2014, 01:28 PM
#30
On Reserve
Joined APC: May 2013
Position: PA28 & C182 PIC
Posts: 16
Originally Posted by CrimsonEclipse
I have a few comments for building time on the cheap.
What is available to you is going to vary greatly.
Is MoGas available in your area? It will cut the cost of fuel by half if your plane STC'd for MoGas.
Is there an A+P willing to work with you on inspections?
Some A+P's will allow you to work on the plane, inspect your work and sign it off for a reduced price. It's also EXCELLENT experience for a new pilot.
Hangar and tie down can also be expensive in your area.
Buy an early model C-172 with mechanical flaps. The early models have fewer AD's
Fly long x-countries at 55% power. You're building time here.
A Cherokee variant is ok too, but I'd skip anything with a constant speed prop or retractable gear. The inspections go up by 100% easily.
Yes, you'll need complex and multi time, but these are easy enough to rent.
You can always acquire a multi engine airplane if 500multi becomes important.
I'd suggest building multi time with one of the schools in the flyover states. They are often 1/2 the price of the big city schools.
What is available to you is going to vary greatly.
Is MoGas available in your area? It will cut the cost of fuel by half if your plane STC'd for MoGas.
Is there an A+P willing to work with you on inspections?
Some A+P's will allow you to work on the plane, inspect your work and sign it off for a reduced price. It's also EXCELLENT experience for a new pilot.
Hangar and tie down can also be expensive in your area.
Buy an early model C-172 with mechanical flaps. The early models have fewer AD's
Fly long x-countries at 55% power. You're building time here.
A Cherokee variant is ok too, but I'd skip anything with a constant speed prop or retractable gear. The inspections go up by 100% easily.
Yes, you'll need complex and multi time, but these are easy enough to rent.
You can always acquire a multi engine airplane if 500multi becomes important.
I'd suggest building multi time with one of the schools in the flyover states. They are often 1/2 the price of the big city schools.
AGREE!!! and I second the piper cherokee.. if you can get a small taildragger it will make you an even better pilot (rudder skills)
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