Norwegian OSM...
 

I’ve never been a hater or supporter of any of the Norwegian spin-offs, I don’t pay attention to ALPA propaganda and rhetoric, and I generally have remained neutral to most of this...
However, this interview:

https://www.aerotime.aero/clement.ch...-pilots-career

is enough to make me say forget this Piece of garbage and his company. He readily admits that pilot pay has plummeted and responsibilities have increased, yet in the same breath blames senior pilots for not encouraging the younger generation to fly and blames them for the shortage. YHGTBFSM.
Not once does he address that compensation needs to be increased, only that schedule flexibility needs to be improved and ab initio programs are the answer. Get out of here. Can’t wait for it to fail.

correct.........

OSM

Out-Source-Me Aviation

The Undercutters Pizza business model.

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=PdfztAY3qoU

My cousin is a mortgage broker in the Ft. Lauderdale area. He called me one day and said “I thought you guys made more money, I just did a mortgage for a 787 pilot and he didn’t even crack $100K last year.” I asked who the guy worked for. He said OSM?? I hadn’t heard of them so I did a little research and discovered these guys.

There will always be pilots willing to undercut everyone else for a shortcut. It’s sad but true.

I’m expecting they would start as cruise relief pilots or ‘second officers’.
And first year pay? We all know about first year pay.
What like 90% of the airlines in the US first year pay is below $100k?

I think, but I’m not sure, that this guy was a Captain

$120,000 is about the pay for a 787 captain at Norwegian.
~$90,000 for a relief captain.
About $66,000 for an FO.

A friend of mine is a 737 captain in Europe for Norwegian and he said his take home pay is about 8000 Euros a month. He said that the 787 captain is the same and I asked why would anyone fly the 787 in that case? He said the 737 is all locals at his base, and the 787 is flown by commuters. I told him what a 737 captain makes in the US and he was quite shocked and said, "No wonder they hate us."

Did your friend tell you what most pilots make in Europe? Pay in Europe is significantly lower than it is in the States, even for the legacy airlines. If you hate Norwegian because of pay or contracts, you need to hate every single European airline. Even those Lufthansa and British Airways guys flying the 747s and A380s are making significantly less than wide body pilots at United, Delta and American. But of course ALPA will not tell you that. And I doubt ALPA is telling you what Eurowings and TUI pilots are getting paid to fly wide body airplanes to and from U.S. destinations.

A jetBlue FO makes more than a top LH/BA A380 captain.

I’m definitely familiar with what pilots make in Europe. I never said I hated Norwegian pilots. Those were his words, not mine. I lived in Europe for a few years and have the EASA license, but I don’t intend to work for a European carrier at this time.

I did not mean "you" specifically, I meant "you" generally speaking. As in if a person is going to hate Norwegian Air pilots for making less than pilots at U.S. airlines, then that person needs to hate all European pilots because virtually all European airlines pay less than U.S. airlines.

What is OSM paying their contract guys? Is it the same as what Norwegian is paying the Europe pilots?

I’m not sure what the OSM guys in the US are being paid but I believe it is similar to what I posted. I asked my friend if he was specially flying for NAI, and he said yes. I didn’t ask if he was employed through OSM.

The contracts are different based on the country in which you are based. The contracts must comply with local laws. In other words, contrary to what ALPA has told everyone, NAI cannot base pilots in Denmark on an Irish contract. The Denmark based pilots must be on a Danish contract. Norwegian has just opened a Copenhagen base for 787 pilots and those guys are directly employed by Norwegian, not an agency, on a permanent Danish contract negotiated by one of the two main Danish pilots unions, Flyvebranchens Personale Union (FPU). However pilots based in LGW are employed by either Rishworth/Global Crew UK, or OSM, on a U.K. contract. The Paris based pilots have a French contract through OSM, Barcelona a Spanish contract, and Rome an Italian contract. Each contract has slightly different terms and conditions based upon the local labor laws and whether or not there is a union involved. So it is not quite so easy to make a direct, blanket comparison between the U.S. based pilots and the Europe based pilots. You have to compare it base to base.

I’m sure all this shell-gaming works to labor’s benefit.:rolleyes:

Does any airline try to ensure their rules and pay are to labor’s benefit and not that of the business? :rolleyes:

It depends. Some countries where there are bases are far more labor friendly. Denmark has some pretty strict labor laws and is very labor union friendly. Yet Norwegian just opened a fairly large long haul base in Copenhagen. I am sure they did not do that in an attempt to screw labor.

Edit - The same goes Norwegian's the Paris base. France is known for very active unions that regularly strike. Again, I doubt they opened a base there for the purpose of screwing labor.

KLM widebody captain (and to get widebody captain at any legacy in the USA you would need 20 years) makes around $300K. Biggest difference, he was hired into KLM at age 20, starting pay $80K, never displaced or furloughed, and retires at age 57 with 70% of his pay. Not saying that the EU LCC are great, but 4 year easyJet captain makes over $200K. WOW, Ryan, Vueling aso are very different.

FOs make 300k a year here in the states, no denying that.

I think your numbers are a bit off (I'm talking easyjet, don't know anyone at KLM) .. plus their schedules are horrendous.



Vueling is one of the lowest paying airlines in the world.

4 year easyJet captain does NOT make 200k a year. Closer to half of that.
KLM is an exception in Europe, and the top pay for straight-up captains is not 300k, closer to 250k. Few make 300k but they often have other positions too.
Starting pay at KLM is around 60k. That's way higher than any other legacy. BA starting pay is around 35k.

BA top captains hit 200k, average is closer to 150k. LH is about the same.
AY, no-one makes more than 150k.
Also remember, these guys pay 50% or more in income taxes, and 20+% VAT etc.
Take home pay, apart from KLM, in European legacies is comparable to good regionals or ULCC's in the US.

I think you will find that those BA salaries are in pounds sterling, which changes things significantly in the favor of the European airlines. I think you will also find that the other European numbers are in Euros. Most of the European Legacies pay their first year pilots very well, as compared to the USA. This is particularly true when considering that the average new hire pilot at a legacy in Europe is in their early 20’s. In the US, pilots at that age are at a regional, getting paid pretty much garbage. Although that garbage has gotten better as of late from what I read.

I'm from Europe, I lived there for 30 years. I've got a lot of friends flying around the continent for pretty much every airline out there.

Starting salary for most legacies is worse than US regional starting salary right now.
I'm pretty sure KLM is the only one where you can break $60k your first year.
You can hit $60k on almost every regional in the US first year.

Also, don't get me started on training bonds, something almost every European carrier has today.
Ryanair still makes you pay for interview (and training if you pass the interview).

Also - when people talk about widebody pay, you need to remember that widebody is the junior spot in a lot of EU carriers. Plenty of pilots start as CRC or even MPL kind of position in a widebody, then move on to the right seat on a narrowbody. The seniority system isn't like it is in the US. A lot of companies pay the same for narrow- and widebodies. There are some overrides, but often those are not very significant. I've got a lot of friends who moved from WB to NB because they didn't like the lifestyle, and they both pay the same.

You can't really compare US and EU carriers, they are just not the same. And the pay is much, much lower especially if you look at take home numbers in EU, than in the US.

(then again - have 3 kids in college and EU is waaay more affordable, again - different strokes for different folks).

Well dera, your statements seem to disagree with this website...
Pilot Jobs Network - Recruitment news for airline pilots and aviation schools which states salaries from many airlines.

... as well as simple google searches which bring up news media articles with salaries from Lufthansa and BA. A simple search of pprune also disagrees with your statements. Not to mention, I also have several friends at both BA and Lufthansa, and they also disagree with your statements. I guess the three of them, along with pprune, the media, and pilotjobsnetowork, could all be lying. Darn fake news. Anyways, no point in arguing. As long as we all can support our families on whatever salaries we earn...is all that matters.

Safe flights, and Happy Holidays

The only thing better they have is a ton of vacation time from day one. 30-40 days a year easy.

Just an oversight on your behalf Dera:rolleyes:

https://careers.ryanair.com/cadets/

Captjns, that is definitely a step in the right direction!

My offer from easyJet two years ago, as a direct entry captain based in LGW, started at about $145,000 (based on today's conversion rate) and climbed to around $170,000 by year five.

So that's what, €120k? Pretty far from 200k.
Need to be more specific with currencies.

The point I'm just trying to make is, that Norwegian isn't "crushing" pilot salaries etc. Their compensation seems to be in line with most similar EU carriers.

The pay in my contract offer was in British Pounds. Based on the exchange rate of today (December 2, 2018), the contract was worth about $145,000 United States Dollars per year to start, and rising to about $170,000 United States Dollars by year five.

The rates they were offering for US based pilots were not in line with US salaries.

It isn't a US Airline.

This right here.

But they’re employing US-based pilots, are they not? They have to compete for local labor just like a thousand other foreign companies operating in the US.

If they are successful in meeting their needs for U.S. based pilots, then from a corporate perspective, they are paying what they need.

This is true.

But in regards to who if willing to fly a shiny 787 for RJ wages well ... let's call a spade a spade.

You should have stayed at republic
Legacy job will be a long shot

Everyone hates the legacy carriers until they get that interview :rolleyes:

Indeed

3 year upgrade at both delta and United and about 235 per hour as of today

The MPL makes just about anybody hirable....

Plenty of willing souls wanting to be Airline pilots wanting to live the dream.... keeps wages low. Like the US used to be.