My Past Life
09-09-2007, 04:20 PM
#11
Line Holder
Joined APC: Aug 2007
Posts: 46
Fire fighting
While Koru is traveling, I'll field a couple of these questions (I can't speak for him, of course; he'll have to answer the first couple).
Fire fighters do work as a team. Each day, the folks in charge of coordinating the fire fighting effort (different agencies, depending on what country you're in; in the U.S., it's the Forestry Service) put together an attack plan. Depending on the size and scope of the fire, tankers will fight the same fire line or branch off toward different areas to maximize coverage. It all just depends; as with everything aviation-related, flexibility is key.
The number of planes airborne depends on, again, the size of the fire. If it's a big one, there could be eight or ten airborne at any given time. Generally, the tankers try to do very quick refueling/rearming turns to maximize time "on-scene."
Sometimes retardants are used, and sometimes water is employed. Cost, availability, and other factors determine which one is used. One of the more common ones used here in the states is called Phos-check (spelling?). It's reddish-orange in color, and mildly corrosive (great to have around airplanes).
Some of the tankers used are amphibious, and do indeed pick up water directly from a lake source. Very quick turnaround times! Others, like the C-130, have to return to a base to be reloaded with the retardant. It's pumped in under fairly significant pressure, so it doesn't take very long (5 to 10 minutes).
I don't know what Koru's experience was like, but here in the states each tanker typically follows a lead aircraft, usually manned by a Forestry service pilot. The lead pilot will talk the tanker aircraft onto the drop site, and advise when to drop. As you can tell from Koru's video, some of the drop runs are fairly hairy.
We didn't do any checking re other firefighters; that was left to the Forestry service people to determine. Occasionally, you'll hear some horror stories about drops gone bad (there's even a good story about one of the amphibious aircraft inadvertently scooping up a diver from a lake and dropping him on a fire), but generally things go ok.
As for the converted 747, I believe it belongs to Evergreen. Last I heard they hadn't yet received permission to fight fires on Federal land, so they're restricted operationally. It sure seems like an interesting idea, but if they ever crash one, it's going to make a great big mess.
Another post alluded to some of the accidents suffered in fire-fighting recently; many of the aircraft used are very old and not originally designed for this mission. A C-130-A (dating to the early '50's) folded its wings fighting a fire in 2002, and a couple of the amphibs have packed it in over the last couple of years. It's demanding work for people and machinery; putting really old, stressed aircraft on the line was never a good idea.
I don't know how Koru feels about his past experiences; I look forward to a very informative post from him, but I can certainly give you my considered opinion now. With some gray hair and the inexorable passage of time, I'm frankly surprised that more people don't die each year doing aerial fire-fighting. A typical profile will place you in hot, high-density-altitude situations with poor, smoke-filled visibility and high, gusty winds.
Then, you take your heavy, retardant-laden aircraft, and fly it just above stall speed with partial flaps and gear up at approximately 150 feet AGL. When you reach the drop (which might be down the side of a 50-degree embankment with tall trees and a box canyon), you dispense the retardant or water under pressure. The C-130's the ANG uses are capable of putting out about 20,000 lbs of the stuff in less than 10 seconds. Guess what that does to your airspeed and CG? We would generally accelerate about 20 to 25 knots almost instantly while experiencing a significant nose-down pitching moment. It really can get pretty hairy.
Let's just say that I don't miss it. I never did very much of it in practice; more training than actual fires, but scary is scary no matter how you slice it.
Koru, looking forward to your take on this!
Fire fighters do work as a team. Each day, the folks in charge of coordinating the fire fighting effort (different agencies, depending on what country you're in; in the U.S., it's the Forestry Service) put together an attack plan. Depending on the size and scope of the fire, tankers will fight the same fire line or branch off toward different areas to maximize coverage. It all just depends; as with everything aviation-related, flexibility is key.
The number of planes airborne depends on, again, the size of the fire. If it's a big one, there could be eight or ten airborne at any given time. Generally, the tankers try to do very quick refueling/rearming turns to maximize time "on-scene."
Sometimes retardants are used, and sometimes water is employed. Cost, availability, and other factors determine which one is used. One of the more common ones used here in the states is called Phos-check (spelling?). It's reddish-orange in color, and mildly corrosive (great to have around airplanes).
Some of the tankers used are amphibious, and do indeed pick up water directly from a lake source. Very quick turnaround times! Others, like the C-130, have to return to a base to be reloaded with the retardant. It's pumped in under fairly significant pressure, so it doesn't take very long (5 to 10 minutes).
I don't know what Koru's experience was like, but here in the states each tanker typically follows a lead aircraft, usually manned by a Forestry service pilot. The lead pilot will talk the tanker aircraft onto the drop site, and advise when to drop. As you can tell from Koru's video, some of the drop runs are fairly hairy.
We didn't do any checking re other firefighters; that was left to the Forestry service people to determine. Occasionally, you'll hear some horror stories about drops gone bad (there's even a good story about one of the amphibious aircraft inadvertently scooping up a diver from a lake and dropping him on a fire), but generally things go ok.
As for the converted 747, I believe it belongs to Evergreen. Last I heard they hadn't yet received permission to fight fires on Federal land, so they're restricted operationally. It sure seems like an interesting idea, but if they ever crash one, it's going to make a great big mess.
Another post alluded to some of the accidents suffered in fire-fighting recently; many of the aircraft used are very old and not originally designed for this mission. A C-130-A (dating to the early '50's) folded its wings fighting a fire in 2002, and a couple of the amphibs have packed it in over the last couple of years. It's demanding work for people and machinery; putting really old, stressed aircraft on the line was never a good idea.
I don't know how Koru feels about his past experiences; I look forward to a very informative post from him, but I can certainly give you my considered opinion now. With some gray hair and the inexorable passage of time, I'm frankly surprised that more people don't die each year doing aerial fire-fighting. A typical profile will place you in hot, high-density-altitude situations with poor, smoke-filled visibility and high, gusty winds.
Then, you take your heavy, retardant-laden aircraft, and fly it just above stall speed with partial flaps and gear up at approximately 150 feet AGL. When you reach the drop (which might be down the side of a 50-degree embankment with tall trees and a box canyon), you dispense the retardant or water under pressure. The C-130's the ANG uses are capable of putting out about 20,000 lbs of the stuff in less than 10 seconds. Guess what that does to your airspeed and CG? We would generally accelerate about 20 to 25 knots almost instantly while experiencing a significant nose-down pitching moment. It really can get pretty hairy.
Let's just say that I don't miss it. I never did very much of it in practice; more training than actual fires, but scary is scary no matter how you slice it.
Koru, looking forward to your take on this!
Originally Posted by vagabond
This is one of the best videos I've seen in a long time! If that was your past life, I can imagine what your present life is like.
Would you mind answering some questions?
1. Are you in the video?
2. Did you film the video?
3. Did you guys work as a team? How many planes are in the air at any given time?
4. How often do you land and takeoff during a typical day of firefighting?
5. Do you use special fire retardants?
6. How long does it take to fill a plane with the retardant?
7. Did one of those planes scoop water from the lake?
8. If water is used, why use retardant?
9. Who tells you where to drop this stuff?
10. Do you check that no firefighters (smoke jumpers or hotshots) are in the area first?
11. Did you hear of that company that is converting old 747s into a gigantic firefighting bird? What do you think of it?
Would you mind answering some questions?
1. Are you in the video?
2. Did you film the video?
3. Did you guys work as a team? How many planes are in the air at any given time?
4. How often do you land and takeoff during a typical day of firefighting?
5. Do you use special fire retardants?
6. How long does it take to fill a plane with the retardant?
7. Did one of those planes scoop water from the lake?
8. If water is used, why use retardant?
9. Who tells you where to drop this stuff?
10. Do you check that no firefighters (smoke jumpers or hotshots) are in the area first?
11. Did you hear of that company that is converting old 747s into a gigantic firefighting bird? What do you think of it?
09-10-2007, 10:38 PM
#12
Gets Weekends Off
Thread Starter
Joined APC: Mar 2006
Position: Contract purgatory
Posts: 701
\
Here goes. I answered one and two so I'll just continue from there. Viliamu did a nice job as well, however we do thing's ever so slightly different in Canada.
3. I fly with a forestry officer in the right seat so CRM, interestingly, comes into play. Thing's happen fast, thing's go by your wing real fast, we can be at the bottom of a gorge in very poor vis with choppers and tankers, sometimes at very high density alt., with some @%#$!* unreal sheer and turbulance, so it's nice to have two guy's looking around and thinking about where we are.
There are two HF's, two VHF's and a SAT phone going, sometimes all at the same time. Choppers on HF and VHF (if I'm lucky; crazy bastards), groundies are on HF, bombers are on VHF and I keep the local civi freq up and going. Regional is guarenteed to call on the SAT phone just on final for a run.
We bomb in groups, a group consisting of a Bird Dog FAC aircraft and from one to six tankers. On a big fire there will be a BD in the air over the fire at all times and the group bombers just keep coming as fast as they can re-load. You have to really whatch your time and fuel as you can be useing lot's or little of both. With good energy management and fuel trimming I spent over 5 hours on a fire in an Aerostar once. The AC690T was pucker factor after four hours.
4. If we are busy and fighting a big fire with a couple of heads (fronts, if you will) then I could be up for two sorties, or close to nine hours. That's nine hours full time flying. The bombers come in, drop, and go for a re-load ,or to hold depending on a number of scenarios. They hot load in Canada and shut down in the States. Real nice for the crew of the round engines. Ask anyone who has had to start an R2800 in Montana when it's +30C.
5. The red stuff is a slurry mixture of water, thickener, some kind of nitrogen fertilizer and a retardent chemical. The scoopers add foam to the water as it is sucked into the tank. You can see a shot of a guy under an Electra loading; kinda like pressure refueling.
6. Viliamu got it at between 5 and ten minutes. Much like pressure refueling. The scoopers are very quick. That Mars loaded up to 60000 pounds on a run. I never clocked it though, just fast.
7. The CL215, or Duck as we call it, and the Turbo duck 415 are specific build Bombardiers. I bombed with a Catalina on a fire in Washington when the US fleet was grounded after H&P lost the two birds. The MARS were run out of Vancouver Island.
The ducks are amphibious, as well as the Cat, but the MARS needs a lake.
The intakes are not big enough to fit a swimmer/diver, that's an old urban legend.
8. We generally used the ducks to spot, that is, drop water/foam on small lightning starts (if we catch them that fast) or spots that occur in front of a fire due to wind travel of embers.
The retardent is not dropped directly on a fire as it is useless. It is placed in front of the fire to bring down the temp and bring up the humidity. I've been on fires where the Fireboss wants loads on the fire, just to go back the next day because it crept out. The point is to ring the thing and cut it off; stop it while you can. Unfortunately both Alberta Forestry in Canada and the State of Washington were run by people who thought like a WWI general. The end result was big, what they called 'campaign' fires. Very dangerous for fire fighters and civis alike.
9. I tell you where to drop the stuff.
We, the BD team, decide on tactics and the big bosses in their ivory tower decide on strategy. We look at the fire, my AAO (air attack officer) tels me what he wants and we work out the best and safest way to get the job done. I do ATC over the fire (we can have bombers showing up individually or a few at a time, then we stack them over the fire at 500 ft intervals) so the BD pilot really has to keep alot of things in mind at one time. It is a very exciting, rewarding hands on job.
10. Always. But in the great state of Washington, if your a groundie and show up to the local pub in the evening with your yellows covered in red, you don't pay for drinks and you'll likely get lucky. They tend to get in the way. If I do a run and I see them still there I call off the bomber and get on the radio. A heavy get's rid of 20000 pounds in short order and it'll uproot trees if dropped too low. It'll also kill a guy pretty quick.
11. Dumbest bloody idea I have ever heard of. Did you see the shot of the DC10 they converted with the leading edge damdge due to a run in with a tree. I have gone across the head of a fire, at 100 feet, IFR, with burning debris hitting the wind screen. How do you think this will work on a JT9?
Basicall, some idiot who fights fires like one of those WWI generals thinks they have a use for a mile long retardent line where the ground is perfectly flat and there are alot of trees. Sounds like the Canadian prairies, or maybe Russia, not sure, but it sure ain't Montana or Northern Wahsington.
That and somebody is going to ride one in and get themselves killed; but hey, just my opinion.
So there it is. My two cents. I had a great time, but keep this in mind; my second week on the job a C310 BD turned into a fireball about a mile off my nose and one of those electras you were whatching ran into the side of a cliff witha very, very good pilot on an easy run. All that said, at the time I was flying around the bottom of a canyon in smoke a good friend of mine was at FL350 over Europe in a B757 and he was the one who didn't make it to see daylight. Go figure.
Very rewarding, great fun at times but not a long term thing for me. Hat's off to the guy's who make it their lives as they do a tought job for much less than it is worth.
Here goes. I answered one and two so I'll just continue from there. Viliamu did a nice job as well, however we do thing's ever so slightly different in Canada.
3. I fly with a forestry officer in the right seat so CRM, interestingly, comes into play. Thing's happen fast, thing's go by your wing real fast, we can be at the bottom of a gorge in very poor vis with choppers and tankers, sometimes at very high density alt., with some @%#$!* unreal sheer and turbulance, so it's nice to have two guy's looking around and thinking about where we are.
There are two HF's, two VHF's and a SAT phone going, sometimes all at the same time. Choppers on HF and VHF (if I'm lucky; crazy bastards), groundies are on HF, bombers are on VHF and I keep the local civi freq up and going. Regional is guarenteed to call on the SAT phone just on final for a run.
We bomb in groups, a group consisting of a Bird Dog FAC aircraft and from one to six tankers. On a big fire there will be a BD in the air over the fire at all times and the group bombers just keep coming as fast as they can re-load. You have to really whatch your time and fuel as you can be useing lot's or little of both. With good energy management and fuel trimming I spent over 5 hours on a fire in an Aerostar once. The AC690T was pucker factor after four hours.
4. If we are busy and fighting a big fire with a couple of heads (fronts, if you will) then I could be up for two sorties, or close to nine hours. That's nine hours full time flying. The bombers come in, drop, and go for a re-load ,or to hold depending on a number of scenarios. They hot load in Canada and shut down in the States. Real nice for the crew of the round engines. Ask anyone who has had to start an R2800 in Montana when it's +30C.
5. The red stuff is a slurry mixture of water, thickener, some kind of nitrogen fertilizer and a retardent chemical. The scoopers add foam to the water as it is sucked into the tank. You can see a shot of a guy under an Electra loading; kinda like pressure refueling.
6. Viliamu got it at between 5 and ten minutes. Much like pressure refueling. The scoopers are very quick. That Mars loaded up to 60000 pounds on a run. I never clocked it though, just fast.
7. The CL215, or Duck as we call it, and the Turbo duck 415 are specific build Bombardiers. I bombed with a Catalina on a fire in Washington when the US fleet was grounded after H&P lost the two birds. The MARS were run out of Vancouver Island.
The ducks are amphibious, as well as the Cat, but the MARS needs a lake.
The intakes are not big enough to fit a swimmer/diver, that's an old urban legend.
8. We generally used the ducks to spot, that is, drop water/foam on small lightning starts (if we catch them that fast) or spots that occur in front of a fire due to wind travel of embers.
The retardent is not dropped directly on a fire as it is useless. It is placed in front of the fire to bring down the temp and bring up the humidity. I've been on fires where the Fireboss wants loads on the fire, just to go back the next day because it crept out. The point is to ring the thing and cut it off; stop it while you can. Unfortunately both Alberta Forestry in Canada and the State of Washington were run by people who thought like a WWI general. The end result was big, what they called 'campaign' fires. Very dangerous for fire fighters and civis alike.
9. I tell you where to drop the stuff.
We, the BD team, decide on tactics and the big bosses in their ivory tower decide on strategy. We look at the fire, my AAO (air attack officer) tels me what he wants and we work out the best and safest way to get the job done. I do ATC over the fire (we can have bombers showing up individually or a few at a time, then we stack them over the fire at 500 ft intervals) so the BD pilot really has to keep alot of things in mind at one time. It is a very exciting, rewarding hands on job.
10. Always. But in the great state of Washington, if your a groundie and show up to the local pub in the evening with your yellows covered in red, you don't pay for drinks and you'll likely get lucky. They tend to get in the way. If I do a run and I see them still there I call off the bomber and get on the radio. A heavy get's rid of 20000 pounds in short order and it'll uproot trees if dropped too low. It'll also kill a guy pretty quick.
11. Dumbest bloody idea I have ever heard of. Did you see the shot of the DC10 they converted with the leading edge damdge due to a run in with a tree. I have gone across the head of a fire, at 100 feet, IFR, with burning debris hitting the wind screen. How do you think this will work on a JT9?
Basicall, some idiot who fights fires like one of those WWI generals thinks they have a use for a mile long retardent line where the ground is perfectly flat and there are alot of trees. Sounds like the Canadian prairies, or maybe Russia, not sure, but it sure ain't Montana or Northern Wahsington.
That and somebody is going to ride one in and get themselves killed; but hey, just my opinion.
So there it is. My two cents. I had a great time, but keep this in mind; my second week on the job a C310 BD turned into a fireball about a mile off my nose and one of those electras you were whatching ran into the side of a cliff witha very, very good pilot on an easy run. All that said, at the time I was flying around the bottom of a canyon in smoke a good friend of mine was at FL350 over Europe in a B757 and he was the one who didn't make it to see daylight. Go figure.
Very rewarding, great fun at times but not a long term thing for me. Hat's off to the guy's who make it their lives as they do a tought job for much less than it is worth.
09-11-2007, 05:19 AM
#13
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Apr 2007
Position: Desert Poolie
Posts: 354
Hey Koru...Thanks for the education!! Awesome stuff. I enjoyed the video, if only I were a few years younger and single!! . It does look a tad more exciting then playing dozer.
BTW...I've got my stuff and $$$ sent of to the immigration dept awhile ago. They are telling me it wont be too long...maybe 3 months!!
Do you know off the top of your head what it takes to actually establish residency once I get the approval? I'm hoping I can stay here until I know I have a job.
Please tell the Mrs. Karen and I said hello.
Cheers,
JD
BTW...I've got my stuff and $$$ sent of to the immigration dept awhile ago. They are telling me it wont be too long...maybe 3 months!!
Do you know off the top of your head what it takes to actually establish residency once I get the approval? I'm hoping I can stay here until I know I have a job.
Please tell the Mrs. Karen and I said hello.
Cheers,
JD
09-11-2007, 07:00 AM
#15
Administrator
Joined APC: May 2006
Position: C-172
Posts: 8,024
Thank you both Koru and Viliamu for your wonderful responses. They are so rich in detail and full of passion. I feel like I flew in one of those planes myself in the middle of a fire in the North Cascades.
09-16-2007, 07:09 AM
#17
Gets Weekends Off
Thread Starter
Joined APC: Mar 2006
Position: Contract purgatory
Posts: 701
Hey Tweet. How are Karen and the newbie? Apparently lot's of hiring next year eh. They ordered another seven B777's, this time -300's, and they are talking about the 747-800. Thing's are good and ANZ is in the black, so we're not too worried. Keep in touch with CK and Margie.
Ciao Mate.
Ciao Mate.
09-17-2007, 05:25 AM
#20
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Sep 2007
Position: To the right of Mickey
Posts: 129
Thanks both of you for great info and video. Not sure I'd have the moxie to make it as a firefighter; I thought it was bad enough early this summer when the giant Georgia wildfire had all of northern and central Florida FU IFR.
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