Sounds to me like you are bitter because you got turned down by the KAL. I have several friends who work there and they all seem very happy and none of them said their instructors make them feel like Koreans "invented flying" as you call it. In fact many of their instructors are Americans. Their medicals are strict but that's the way it is over there and if you want the job just grin and bear it. If you are not fit, you shouldn't be flying anyway. As far as KAL preferring older CAs, I call that BS because majority of their pilot rank comes after a stint in the Korean Air Force and according to my friends over there, a vast majority of KAL CAs are in fact in their 40s and 50s.

I am seriously tempted to apply for KAL jobs because all my previous dealings with Korean people including the time I spent over there when I was in the military had been very pleasant and I do not see anyway I can fly wide body international flights here in the US with the shape US carriers are in today.

 

They (The koreans) are probably bitter.... or jealous... may be that's why they are acting that way. The KAL pilot union (which the ex-pats are neither can join nor are part of) and the company agreed to reduce the number of expats a number of years back. That never happened. Actually, the company increased the number of expat pilots claiming they cannot get enough supply of pilots within Korea. I get the impression from Korean KAL pilots that the company is treating the expats better than their Korean counterpart and increasing number of expat direct entry captains, thus limiting the opportunity for the Korea FOs to upgrade-all to weaken the union. In return, those people over there may think of you as....well...... you know what... and get mad at you so possibly a bad treatment.... take it for what it's worth

 

You are getting all this from what? From personal experience? I doubt that since you don't seem to know what you are talking about. Instead of spewing nonsense from your own personal prejudice, why not do some real research and talk to people who really fly there like I have. US pilots ARE treated well, probably little better than Korean pilots as you have said, and that is what I am hearing from all my friends who fly over there. Feedbacks I am getting differs night and day from yours and having been over there during my military days, I call your statement unsubstantiated BS. My friends and I have always been treated with respect when we were over there for joint military exercises.

 

I was talking about these individual 'horror' cases where expat interviewees are being yelled at for something they shouldn't get yelled at. Where did I come up with that? It was an 'educated guess'. Yes, I know a number of expats at KAL and also many the local pilots. If you can, go read up on KAL flight crew union free board. I did recognize the expats get treated well by the company. Will most Korean pilots? yes. Even if they are bitter and what not, most likely they will not show it, etc. Will some? may be. Lightning speed, just for your record, i've worked for a very brief period of time at KAL (not as pilot, but at a department related to flight ops, where I interacted with the flight crews as a part of the job.) FOR THE RECORD, I wasn't saying everyone at KAL is bitter at expat nor they will treat anyone like crap. I was just making an educated guess on why they were yelling at people etc. Instead of just saying 'korean people are jacka$$s and they think they invented flying'. oh... and most of ex pats wouldn't know about the company using them as a union busting tool. It's not that it matters to them... at least at KAL anyway

 

L'speed,
No one is making anything up. Take a look at some of the other web boards. It got so bad about a year ago, the State Department actually got involuntarily involved. That my friend was bad juju. I know of four highly qualified, 777 type rated with hours, early retirees from a big airline, former Line Check Airman, all with 15-20000 hours, former military pilots, no blemishes on their records that during their training they were treated like friggin' cadets. You ever been screamed at in a simulator? Ever been told you were "stupid" during training? Again, this seems to be fleet specific. And if and when you make it through, you are treated well, until your PPC, then it starts all over again. Can you say fraternity rush?

A number of my former colleagues are there now. And they do enjoy it, they like the contract and the money is good. But getting through their 777 program is purely insulting. One friend actually shut the sim down and walked out. He did make it through.

Oh and BTW, you say you shouldn't be flying if you are not fit. Nice one. A guy breaks is wrist 35 years ago and he is disqualified until he has an ortho exam in the states. I don't have a problem with them wanting all this stuff, it's their game ball, but for you say you shouldn't be flying if you are not fit....I have to laugh at that. Any cred you had just is diminished by such an inmature statement.

It's a great job once you are in the club. But do not give up a fair job for this with possibility for not making it through. Don't go out and buy yourself a rating thinking that will get you through.

And again, why have they been advertising through every agency in the world for the last, at least five years, for 777 pilots. Using any logic you might have, that, that alone will tell you something is amiss. My airline now has close to 80 777s (I think) and taking 15 more this year. WE ARE NOT looking for pilots. Wonder why KAL continues to search worldwide for pilots with their much smaller fleet?

 

My comment on fitness did not refer to your comment on "broken wrist 35 years ago. Hell I wasn't even born. Ancient history but they have the right to make sure that prior injury will not impede that individual's performance. It would be the same if you or I were going through any military pilot screening or major airline company physical. I was referring to people who were complaining about how tough the physical is. Military physical is no picnic either and when in Rome do as the Romans do. I am not saying the company physical should be overly tough but all I am saying is if you want to fly for KAL you have to go through their screening process like everyone else. Korean pilots go through the same physical screening as US pilots. I stand by my statement that if you are not fit you shouldn't be flying. You should have the sense to ground yourself before you kill someone. This is the credo we lived by when we were in the military. Why should it be different in civilian flying? What is immature about that statement. No response necessary.

Must be your friends' isolated experience because I also have friends flying over there and they wouldn't be recommending me to KAL if they were all treated like cadets as you claim. I responded to reponses that were on the borderline of racial prejudice by stating that Koreans act like they invented flying etc. Sounded like bitter and prejudiced individuals who did not make the cut. Just because they had 20,000 hours and were LCA does not mean that they meet KAL stds. I've met some very experienced pilots with impeccable credentials who acted like jerks and arrogant. This was confirmed by my friends there who said those who got washed out were mostly ones who can't work as team members and anti-social types.

Most Korean pilots I have encountered when I was in the military were humble and certainly paid us US pilots due respect for coming from a country which invented modern flying. Many of them also acknowledged that we saved their country from the Communists back during the Korean War. They still have such vivid memories of a long forgotten war in which so many Americans died. Ask some teenagers here in the US today and see if they even know what you are talking about. Ask a Korean teenager there he'll know more than you.

Making blunt racially motivated statements like some here made is what gives us the ugly American image overseas. I take special offense to bad mouthing Koreans who were so nice to my buddies and I when we were over there. They all made us feel pretty good about ourselves being Americans.

Only negative feedbacks I have received regarding foreign airline training were from guys who went to Emirates and Cathay Pacific. One friend who went to Cathay Pacific said expat Brits who are instructing over there did eveything they could to wash out American pilots. Similar story from Emirates. I have not received any negative feedbacks regarding KAL training from my friends over there. If you want to fly for them don't go with the attitude you are better than they are because that will be transparent to them and obviously they will try to put you in your place. Who can blame them.

 

so, how much time did you spend with local KAL guys, not the ROKAF pilots?

if anyone at KAL is bitter about the ex pats taking away their upgrade opportunities, it would be the Jeju flight school graduates, not the ex-ROKAF pilots. KAL's labor relations is a mess to say the least (the local pilot side). And I wasn't implying that the local pilots have a grudge against Americans or any nationalities for that matter; I was trying to say that some, if not a lot, of the local pilots are upset with the fact that the management has not kept their word to reduce the number of expats but rather increasing the number.

BTW, A lot of things that would be waive-able in the US isn't in Korea. I personally know two 744 captains there who had some problem with cardio system, which would have been not a major problem in the US or UK. CAA? or whatever equivalent of FAA they have over there refused, until one of them went through a long process of getting a waiver from UK CAA. The other one is working with the FAA right now. A lot of aviation related things (as far as the government is concerned) in Korea are backwards, even though it has gotten a lot better.

Lighteningspeed, surprisingly enough, you are the first person I have seen that defends KAL.

 

It's not about defending KAL. It's about people like you making generalized and stereotyped statements against Korean nationals that I am referring to. My close buddy is married to a Korean lady and he would not take kindly to your kind making generalized statements that Korean pilots are jealous and bitter towards Americans, which by the way is just not true and I don't want your bitterness to color the judgment of my fellow American pilots against KAL. I think KAL would be a good opportunity for those who is looking for it, including myself.

I'll give you that I have not mingled with KAL pilots but I have met a lot of Koreans and I have yet to have a bad experience. Not to mention Korean girls are definitely hot.

 

Again, i was not saying bitter towards AMERICANS, or individual expat pilots for that matter. Most are just bitter about the management's decision to keep and even increase the number of ex pats. Vast majority of them understand the individual pilots are there just to make money, not to screw them over individually. Some people however, I would not be surprised if they express their bitterness to the individual pilots.

I am a second gen. Korean. Again, I was giving a reason why SOME local pilots MAY treat ex pats inappropriately. I am not suggesting everyone there is going to treat americans (or should I say the ones with big nose and round eyes) like crap, regardless they have a feeling towards the ex pat issue or not.

 

Okeee dokeee

Let's pick this one apart, shall we?

Skyone one wrote a very good post. He is a very experienced individual and knows what he is talking about. I also like to think that I do, but I'm not as "experienced" as Skyone

In regards to negative feedback from training at Cathay Pacific and Emirates, there is no denying that does occur. There are numerous reasons for it and it can vary significantly. Often times pilots new to expat flying or a new airline are not used to the culture of that airline. Even within the USA there are different cultures amongst the airlines. Some are very strict and some are very lax. This has a great affect on pilots when they move overseas. Both Cathay and Emirates operate training departments that expect a student to prepare him/herself to a much higher degree than most U.S. airlines. Many of the compaints I have seen come from guys who come over expecting to be taught everything without lifting the books themselves.

That's not to say that there aren't some douchbag instructors at either company, I'm certain there are. The great majority are good though and, in fact, are quite helpful to new joiners from the USA.

In regards to no negative feedback form your friends at KAL, that may be true, but I have received quite a lot from people who have joined in the last 2 years. One highly experienced expat pilot friend of mine who joined on the B777 told all his former co-workers not to try for KAL because the odds were they would fail training. Three out of four in his class failed. Another who left my present company stated that training is absolutely miserable.

KAL instructors and examiners don't play by normal rules. If they decide they don't like a guy the checkride result is already decided before it begins. That has been going on for over a decade that I know of. One person I know of who joined ten years ago was told to back his bags before he left on his checkride trip to Pusan and back. The result had already been decided.

KAL is certainly one of the best commuting contracts in the world, but it comes with it's problems. The biggest one on the B777 fleet is the rather large question of whether one will be successful in training and keep their job. Expat pilots are in the middle of a struggle between Korean pilots and management. That's not really an ideal situation to be in.



Typhoonpilot