The Europan experience....
 

Ever wonder what it would be like to fly in Europe, well.... this is my perspective:D!

I got furloughed from my company in the US and decided to jump all in and get my JAA ATPL with a B 737 type rating. I took me 6 months to accomplish the task, afterwards I was offered a job in Scandinavia.

Upon arrival, my first experience was their government! I was astounded by the enormous amount of bureaucrats they need over there! 1 in every 3 persons living in Norway works for the government! It was astonishing to witness the mundane mountains of paperwork it took to process even the smallest request. I used to think it was bad at home, but this has given me a completely different perspective and a new appreciation for the US.
Most things are poorly organized over there as well, everything from a simple thing like getting a phoneline set up to dealing with the tax authorities is dim-witted.
And... the cost of living... is staggering!! Gasoline is $9.00/gallon, a beer in a bar is $14.00 a pint, 38 percent of my salary goes to the government and I am paying $2000 in rent for a small basic apartment! I am making a gross salary of $100 000, which compares to making approx. $35 000 in the US after considering taxes and cost of living.
The climate is dreary and gray, which is reflected in the local populations attitude in general. Everyone complains about weather, the poor health care system, the substandard schools and preposterous taxes.

To wrap it up! The company is allright and the flying is tolerable. But I can't wait to go home again!:cool:

yeah....leave if it is so bad. or develop an open mind and learn to enjoy living in a great country with great people.

Several Questions:
How did you convert to JAA, did you do all 14 exams?
If you paid for your own B737 type how much did and cost and where did you do it?

Know exactly how you feel, I worked overseas for a few months....We all like to complain about the U.S, but you don't know how good you have it here until you go somehwere else.....Good friend of mine had a similar experience in Ireland, but he made out OK. They paid for his Falcon type, he flew there 2 years and now flies out of Chicago for a fortune 500 company.

I guess it depends on what you make of it



Good thread

No place is perfect, just make the best of it
 

Maybe you should try it's neighbor to the east ;)?

I'm guessing you are with Norwegian? There is no way in he!! I would put myself through JAA training unless I planned a minimum of five years in Europe. Anything less simply would not be worth the hassle and expense. Luckily all I had to do to get my JAA license was to tick a box :p.

Like others have said, if you don't like it go back home. I have made the opposite move and am considering reversing it myself. I know what you mean about having a different appreciation for your home country once you leave it. Had it not been for the crappy weather and lack of good aviation jobs I probably never would have made the move myself.

I never lived in Norway (visited many times for skiing) but I can tell you that IMO there are a lot of things in the US that can be extremely frustrating too. You say things are poorly organized over there. There must be a huge difference how they do things in Norway compared to my home country. Before I moved to the US (for a third time in my life) I lived in the Caribbean and I expected things to be run a lot smoother than down in island life. Boy was I surprised! There has been so many times where I have dealt with government/authorities and getting conflicting answers. The right hand usually does not know what the left hand does.

I'm in no way saying things are perfect over in Euroland, far from. As you mentioned paperwork being one thing. But this goes for the US too, or any other country in this world for that matter. It would be great if one could take all the good things from a number of countries and make one good out of it. Since that is not possible all you can do is to accept it and make the best out of it while there.

What I can tell you is that, most likely, when you do move back to the US there are things that will frustrate the he!! out of you because you forgot how it's done compared to in Norway. It's not until you have experienced something different that you will pay attention to things back home you have never thought about before. Good and bad.

As far as cost of living you have to keep in mind you chose to move to one of (if not the) most expensive countries in the world. But, also remember that as a person paying taxes over there you will never have to worry about getting sick, paying for having your kids in kindergarten, and later on sending them off to college. In how many countries can you become a doctor or lawyer withoug having to pay a single dime in tuition? Or having your wife stay home for a year (18 months in Sweden, not sure about Norway) with 80% pay after giving birth to your son/daughter? Or how about a mandatory five weeks of vacation. Just trying to show there are good and bad things with every system.

I hope you don't take this post as a bash on the US but instead as an advice from someone who has experienced living in quite a few countries, considering my fairly young age.

To finish off, I bet you will miss them Norwegian girls when you do leave ;).

i was in stockholm earlier this year for about a week. i heard housing was pretty cheap?

my only complaint there was the beer. i didn't see anything amber or dark. the liquor store was pretty funny. like a thousand different beers that were pretty much identical. lol. sold in singles.

to the matter of taxes, i'm only taking home around 66% of my rj pay right now. . . in the good ol US of A. would i pay another 5% to have free health care and schooling? need i even answer that? i could own one of those expensive homes if i didn't have a massive student loan.

You must not have looked close enough ;). But I do believe lighter brew is more popular. The only place to get hard liquor and wine in Sweden is in a monopoly run store controlled by the state, which is different from most of European countries where you can pick up alcohol in grocery stores just like in the US.

http://www.systembolaget.se/Applikat...par/InEnglish/

There are actually organized bus tours going down to Denmark and Germany to pick up cheaper alcohol. The good part is that they'll let you drink from the age of 18. Never understood the logic behind "you can drive a car at 16, fight in a war at 18 but not buy a beer until you are 21" :confused:. Very backwards thinking in my mind.

As far as home prices in Stockholm it's been debated for quite some time now. There's been a huge run in home prices in general, but more so in Stockholm, for the last 10 years or so. Very similar to some areas in the US. The difference is that, unlike in the US, those prices have not really come down over the past year. In my opinion it's unavoidable that they soon will. A lot of young people have over extended themselves with a mortgage not correlating to their income. They will hurt badly once the interest rates will go up again, and they soon will. You can get a mortgage as low as 2% right now, but it's not possible to lock it in for more than a few months. No such thing as 30 year fixed rates over there.

cool. i'll ask you where to find that micro-brew stuff if i go back. that monopoly run state controlled store is what i was talking about. isn't it weird, though?

i heard that the housing was somewhat controlled by the state as well until recently. is that true? if so, maybe that's part of the run on prices.

that age thing reminds me of a 2pac quote, "did you ever stop to think, i'm old enough to go to war, but i ain't old enough to drink." bet there aren't too many 2pac quotes on this forum to date? :)

Not sure what they were talking about, but it may have been about the housing that was built in he 50's and 60's by the government. Not what I exactly call recently :). But I guess that's all relative since we have some 1000+ years old cities.

To be honest I haven't lived in Sweden since 2001 and I'm not keeping up with everything that's going on over there.

swedespeed -

Are you a native of Stockholm? I lived for a year in Vaxholm and went to school in Stockholm/ I remember my family talking about the taxes and the goods and others. I was VERY impressed with the educational system that I saw in place. I didn't have to deal with the health care system but I agree with you in that there are goods abd bads in every country I've ever lived or worked in - some worse than others.

USMCFLYR

Totally right !!!

USM, I only lived in Stockholm for about six months when I converted my FAA license to a Swedish license back in 1999.

Me and my wife (American) would love to have a place in Stockholm and spend the summers over there. No better place to be during the summer IMO. By many considered to be the most beautiful capital in the world, if I may brag a little :).

Taxes has always been a hot topic back home, for good reasons. They are very high, but not quite as bad as in Denmark and Norway. Fortunately for those paying Swedish taxes the sitting government is in process of lowering them bit by bit.

I get 15 pay checks a year here in Europe (Thanks to a law here in Greece regarding Xmas pay,Easter pay,Vacation pay)... really can't complain.

I guess it depends where you live and who you work for ... I couldn't imagine living in Scandinavia. Everyone has their own experience.

I would have hoped that before you went to the time and trouble to get a JAA license you would have spent some time researching where you would be living for an extended time to pay off that investment.

There is no question that anyone will find the expat experience to be a lot different than "back home" no matter where home is. The trick, I believe, is to embrace the differences and take that experience with you when you return. You will be more well rounded for having been outside the USA. It's good to see that we don't have a monopoly on all that is correct in the world.

Politics is an essential part of living in the world. For a forum relating to expatriate flying there is a need to discuss all factors that come with living away from home.

Just because it's "free" doesn’t mean it's actually there when you need it... Case in point, my mom waited almost two years for her brain tumor surgery. It was a similar type of cancer that Kennedy had but much less aggressive... Had it been the same type as his she’d have been out of luck as the waiting time would’ve been the same (according to her treating doctor)…

She lives within an hour or so of the hospital and managed to get in front of the line when a person ahead of her died just a day or so before his surgery was supposed to happen; they called my mom to fill his “waiting-line slot.” She's fine now but the pre-surgery testing and the waiting process was a horrible experience.

You’ll have many universal health care proponents here tell you how great it is but from my personal experience it really isn’t that great. My sister is an equivalent to a physician assistant in Norway and they seem to have some issues there too despite the record oil revenues…

I tried to put my mom on my health insurance here in the US but couldn’t do it without a SS number... That's what you get for trying it the legal way... :rolleyes:

Oh, before someone says I made it all up – my mom lives just outside of Stockholm and the surgery was performed at Ersta Hospital. I posted a summary of our experiences here a while back in one of the universal health care threads…

My overall perspective on universal health care in Scandinavia - the doctors and the general quality of health care over there is top notch - the problem is to actually get through the bureaucratic layers of government “stallers,” “naysayers,” and other paper pushers... Our system here isn’t perfect either and should be improved BUT I sure don't want a European style universal health care here…

The taxes in Sweden used to be much higher than in Denmark or Norway but have been dropping slowly since the early 80s. The current conservative government in particular has been very aggressive when it comes to pushing for lower taxes.

People in Sweden were used to the high tax rates and no one really protested any more; most simply gave up. It was a famous children’s books author who unwittingly caused an embarrassment to the liberal government of Social-Democrats (equivalent to Democrats in the US). Her name was Astrid Lindgren and if you have kids – she wrote the “Pippi Longstocking” series and many other children’s books.

Anyways, in 1976 Ms. Lindgren had won a price for one of her stories but didn’t get to keep one penny (or öre ;)) from her winnings. Her marginal tax rate was determined to be 102% !!! :eek:

That’s right! The government took her entire price in taxes AND she had to pay an additional 2% of the winnings from her own savings!!!

They'd been increasing the tax rates year after year and no one "realized" that eventually there wouldn't be anything left to be taken away... :mad:

That’s when people finally woke up…



Astrid Lindgren - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

(...) In 1976, a scandal arose in Sweden when Lindgren's marginal tax rate was publicized to have risen to 102%. This was to be known as the "Pomperipossa effect" from a story she published in Expressen on 3 March 1976. The publication led to a stormy tax debate. In the parliamentary election later in the same year the Social Democrat government was voted out for the first time in 40 years, and the Lindgren tax debate was one of several controversies that may have contributed to this result. (...)

Birdie - if you get furloughed and need to look for jobs in other countries you must take everything into conisderation... Not only the pay rates but also the tax rates, type of health insurance, auto insurance, food prices, etc... It's almost impossible to discuss this issue without some kind of a comparison, wouldn't you say? :confused:

Greetings Birdie, the intention with my post was simply to share my experience with others who might be considering a move abroad. It appears that you take offense to my post because it does not adress what you think is not "pilot issues"! What you feel those might be is anyones guess! If I may suggest some tolerance for others, you will find that you might benefit by learning from others experiences. Which is always better than learning the hard way yourself. One never knows when a situation arises which changes ones circumstances.

Although short and unsympathetic, I thank you for your reply! I will however go home when the time is right for me. I am optimistic and believe the financial climate the US airlines are facing today, will improve in a not very distant future. When that happens, new opportunities will once again present themselves and I am sure many returning expats will have developed a new appreciation for the USA.

I am from Norway and came to the US and I have to point out that it is NOT any easier the other way around. There is the same staggering amount of paperwork when you move to the US. Immigration is a joke coming here. Try to get established in the US with no credit score or history. For the first 2 years my credit limit on a credit card was $300!!!

Im not sure why it would be so hard to set up a phoneline. Did they ask for what we have as SSN?

Cost of living is high. When I lived and worked there I made about $50,000 and paid 30% tax which according to you is equal to $17,500 over here. My QOL in Norway was a lot better than here, and I make $35K here. I did live in Oslo which has property prices like NYC.

What you forget to mention with taxes is that 1 month(july) is tax free, and one month is 1/2 tax(dec.) As well as 5 weeks paid vacation. Government paid retirement.(No gambling with a 401k) Free school/university with government paying you grants every year. Free Healthcare. Public transportation that is light years ahead of US.(which doesnt say much)

Norway is not a place to go and make a quick buck like contract work in other parts of the world, but rather an excellent place to live long term. That is why it has ranked among the best places to live in the world.

I'm not trying to create a "mine is better than yours" competition. All experiences are subjective.
You are the first person that has complained about the locals attitude. Go out and drink a beer. After all, the girls are a lot prettier in Norway;)

May I ask what city you live in and what company you work for?
I am just know planning to do the JAA conversion so maybe I can take your $100K job and you can take my $35K job.

How and where did you do the JAA conversion?

HAVE YOU TAKEN A GOOD LOOK AT THE SCANDINAVIAN WOMEN!!!!????:D

that reason alone is enough to stay forever.
on another topic, its true that in europe you ll pay more taxes but you cant even start comparing the european health care systems and the US system.

I live in Oslo, the company as I mentioned earlier is a fine place to work (no need to mention it's name, my point is to share my European experience).

Taxes in Norway are extremely high, (so health care is not free!) July is not tax free by the way! July's paycheck is one of the two; "vacation money" or your salary for the month, whichever is higher! The "vacation money" as the tax authorities calls it, is based on your gross salary and prepaid by yourself each month you work throughout the year. Then in July you get that money back, "taxfree".
However, you forfeit your salary for that month!

As far as "gambling with your 401k, at least you can allocate it's funds yourself, and have nobody to blame but yourself if it goes south. The Norwegian government lost $120 BILLION :eek:of taxpayers money last year, through "poor investments"! (Thats a lot of money for a country with only 4 mill. people) But, if you'd rather have these folks manage your money. Then, that is of course your choice!

The conversion to a JAA license requires; 14 written exams, a Skill Test and a Base Check, (6 t/o and landings in the actual plane if you are getting a type)

There are several ways to do this, the theoretical part is the toughest! You can do an online study through an approved school and then go to Europe and take the exams. There are a few schools in the US where you can take the type rating, Pan Am flight Academy is one of them. As far as the cost, I found through my reserch that it cost's less doing the bulk of the training in the US. The skill test must be done in Europe with a Scandinavian Examiner, (if you are getting a scandinavian license). Total cost, type included, was around $40 000, that is probably what you should expect to spend!
I am not trying to be discouraging, but be prepared to study 4-6 hrs a day for 5 months straight for the exams, The type rating can be completed in 4-6 weeks. It is a fairly big project that requires a good dose of patience!
Then, the authorities will do their part to add to the challenge!


Good luck! :cool:

True, but there are plenty of ugly ones too... Ugliness does not discriminate! :)

As far as "European health care system" - you're right, you can't even compare it because it usually sucks...

Sure, there's lots of paper work but 2 years with a max $300 credit card? Did you come here in the middle of the bank crisis??? Within a few weeks of me arriving here I had a $1,000 Citi card and an additional Wells Fargo credit card. Maybe they just don't trust the Norwegians? ; ) ...or maybe things simply got much more difficult? I don't know but my entire PVT class was full of Germans, Britts, few Aussies, some French, Swedes and a few Wegees too. I think we all kept drinking this super cheap (to us) beer using our brand spankin' new credit cards. Not sure why things got so much different...

Yeah, I don't get that part either...

I can tell you're an "arbeiderparti" or "socialistisk venstre" kool-aid drinker (both very liberal, socialism leaning parties).

"Government retirement" or a pension is basically a different version of our social security benefits. Highly inefficient and a waste of taxpayers money... It's not a "gift" from the government but rather part of your taxes that the government takes away from you and then invests in "safe" (aka low-yield) bonds, etc. That 'pension' would probably have been at least twice the size had they invested it in stocks; at least a portion of it. Yes, even with the stock markets moving up and down the stock market always wins over savings accounts when it comes to long term investments, and that's what we're talking about here.

"Free healthcare" is not free, it's paid by you via high taxes. Additionally, it's extremely bureaucratic - my sister works part time in a Drammen hospital and also in an Oslo clinic; many years ago she was a nurse in Dallas, TX. In her own words "the quality of health care here and in the US is actually about the same. We simply pay much more (through taxes) to wait longer." Neither country has the perfect solution but please stop calling it "free" health care because it is not.

Schools, like you said they're mainly free but personally I think the quality of higher education is better here. There's a reason why thousands of students from all over the world flock to the US universities every year.

Vacation? I won't argue with you on this one; I do wish we had longer vacations in the US. I think it has to do with the puritanical beginnings of this nation. Whereas the Europeans work to live, the Americans live to work. Many years ago I saw a pan-European study asking people if they'd prefer more pay or more time off? Over 90% of people from all over Europe chose more time off. I bet you the numbers would've been reversed here in a similar survey.

Although I agree with you that Norway is an excellent country to live in, I wouldn't rely much on the "best place to live" surveys. Most often they're conducted by very biased UN statisticians and we all know that UN is hardly a US friendly organization.

True and I think it's great he/she found a place in Norway to call it home for now until things improve in the US again. Many years ago one of my former instructors went on a European vacation and he ended up in Ireland, met a girl, fell in love and a year or so later moved from Rome, Georgia to Ireland. Last time I heard from him he was living in London and was a captain for Ryan Airlines.

We pilots are modern versions of Vikings; we travel for a living and very often the job search takes us all over the world. Oh, and nowadays we don't rape and pillage; we simply take our pay checks, explore and take some pictures... LOL

Obviously women are much prettier just a little further to the east but yes, there are (some) pretty women in Norway too... :)


Many moons ago I read a story on what it's like to move to a foreign country. The author said we all go through 4 stages of being an immigrant and how long we stayed in a specific phase depended on whether we had long term plans for living in that country or not.

Stage_
1) Everything seems to be better in the new country, orange juice tastes better, the sun is brighter, etc., etc.

2) We start seeing things we don't like but overall we still like it...

3) We hate everything about the new country and feel that things are better back home. In fact, it's better and it's free or at least much cheaper!

4) We've accepted all the differences and try to draw the best from both worlds.

I think that maybe you might be somewhere between phase two and three whereas I might've moved on to the last stage? I might be all wrong, but that's just my personal observation. Enjoyed the discussion with a fellow scandihoovian... ;)

I wish our APC gurus would create a world airlines database where we could compare the pay and benefits (with a built in currency calculator)...

In other words, to expand this to most of Europe, Asia, etc.

http://www.airlinepilotcentral.com/a...rnational.html

for mr 73inEurope4now
 

I lived in Oslo Norway for more then 23 yrs. I cant tell you how much I hate it.


all norwegian are so lazy people. They have this horrible system that makes you abuse the system. They have to have 4 vacation a yr to pass the miserable life they live and not to talk about the WX please.
Brother my heart is with you, hold one for a few yrs and come back home. My mom lives in Oslo, and I haven't been there for over a 3 yrs, cant stand the stupidity of the norwegian.And they call the American for being fat and lazy please. Norway is a fantasy world I am so glad that I am american now. Good luck brother

You are right its kind of hard to compare two health care systems .however you could visit the World health organization website and take a look at a few stats that reflect the systems:
WHO | WHO Statistical Information System (WHOSIS)

I have used a comparison tool:
norway compared to usa:

infantile mortality rate ( per 1000 births): N: 3 USA 7

life expectancy: N 80 U 78

maternity mortality ratio (per 1000) N 7 USA 11

there are many more comparison tools but you can try yourself and you ll see that there wont be a huge difference but the US is constantly behind.

...somehow I think this conversation is going nowhere....

you could try pilotjobsnetwork.com. it s not always up to date but a good starting point.

Wow. You didn't mention even one positive. As others have said, if you don't like it, go home. Or if you have no other options, then be appreciative of your host country, especially since you are a foreigner in their land, and they have offered you employment, and in this world economy.

In the meantime, try and do all of the rest of us open-minded Americans a favor, and not perpetuate the obnoxious, intolerant, and ethno-centric stereotype of the USA.

Not true, not all Norwegians are lazy, far from it... Some are abusing the system but look at our welfare-moms, many have never, not once, held a job!

Create a system people can abuse and guess what, people will abuse it. It's the human nature...

Let's keep comparing the living conditions here and there for those who might be interested in becoming an expat, but let's do it without vilifying the host nation's citizens (and yes, I know you used to and maybe still are a citizen of Norway).

Do you really mean it? So an immigrant can only speak up when praising his host nation but the minute he/she complains - GO HOME!?

What was it you said about perpetuating "the obnoxious, intolerant, and ethno-centric stereotype of the USA"?

If he lives and works there legally, pays his taxes like the rest of his coworkers do I see no reason why he shouldn't be able to speak up whether we agree or disagree with his message...

True.. But when you give a review or share an experience you should include a complete review. Dont say TAXES ARE HIGH!!! without sharing what they cover...

And BTW av8or... I am not a socialist liberal voter in Norway. I actually lean on the right side.

Not that left, right, red, blue matters.. It is possible to have a stance somewhere in between.. Something you dont see here in "God's country"

I agree, it'd be nice if he brought up some positive experiences too but I still like the fact he actually speaks up and describes things the way he sees them...


Well, remember that the "red" and the "blue" colors here in the US represent totally opposite ideologies than how the rest of the world sees it - still trying to figure that one out...:confused:

...and I disagree with you, plenty of "centrist" views here in "God's country" as well. The fact religion is not a dirty word in the US like it is in most of Europe, especially in Scandinavia is something I applaud by the way...

Ha det...

73 - what kind of work visa/permit did you get? Is it time limited? Can you look for other flying jobs or is your visa tied to "your" airline only?

The views are there, but when you vote for who will run the country it seems that it is one or the other here..

Im not sure what you mean by religion is not a dirty word in the US like it is in Europe. Are you saying Americans are more open minded?:confused:

This thread is heading down the line of *my politics versus your politics* and religion - both of which are not in line with the TOS. AV8OR and s10an - if you would like to continue this conversation on the PMs - please feel free. Continuing down that particular road on the public forum will cause it to be shutdown.

USMCFLYR

Because of my dad's past contract jobs I've had the privilage of living in 5 different countries prior to the US - my personal experience is that Americans are absolutely more open minded than the average European.

Often they're reserved and suspicious but they're always curious and interested. Once they don't feel threatened by you they'll accept you as "one of the guys."

Europeans might appear open-minded and knowledgable but very often have made up their mind about the "foreigner" before he or she even had a chance to speak up.

I know I'm generalizing here and there are numerous exceptions to the rule but you asked my opinion so there you have it...

How about we agree to disagree and move on to the comparisons of pilots' conditions here versus Norway and other countries? ;)

I agree with this observation. I realize there are exceptions, but it seems that once a dem/rep always a dem/rep. During the last election I read an article saying the election campaigns are really only for the few independents out there, the majority have already made up their mind before the campaigns even start.

It also seems like a lot of people base their vote on ONE main issue (abortion, gun control and so on) and not looking at the whole spectrum of views that the candidates represent.

I guess you and me have to agree to disagree on this too ;). Through out all my years living in various countries I rarely come across americans living abroad. That tells me they are not willing or curious to experience new cultures. Americans going to McDondald's when visiting Europe, does that sound familiar?

Again, there are of course exceptions just like with everything else.

I must say I have noticed a new trend lately among US pilots. In these difficult times in our industry a lot more guys, younger in particular, seem to be open to moving overseas. I think this is great since they will hopefully bring home and share their experiences with others.