xjtguy

Yep, even in the late 90s/2000 era it was still hard. First time around was about 1 in 10 to 1 in 12 hired. If a guy got a second chance it was usually 50% on the hire rate.

And yep, the single engine sim flew at jet speeds with it taking data points every few seconds to grade the overall performance of how many times the candidate was off speed/heading/alt/GS, etc. So the gouge on the sim profile was that if you were off to correct RIGHT AWAY. Smoothness didn't matter, it was about staying on.

USMCFLYR

TP/xjtguy -

Not only flying experience, but airline style flying experience. I knew a few who came out of the TacAir world who did not fair well in that sim even with the one hour of time bought in whichever sim was available in the Denver area at the time.

USMCFLYR

xjtguy

TP, you were around then. You know it didn't really take into account flying skill THAT much. A person could go to the specific prep, get multiple runs at the profile, and nail it. Even if they were a lower time candidate that wasn't competitive.

A twelve year old fresh off a Nintendo could ace it simply by eye/hand coordination and not getting off the alt/hdg/spd/loc/gs, etc if he had a few practice runs in the modified AST300 (IIRC).

captjns

Be that as it may... however... PIC time is alot more valuable than being and MEL item in the right seat when applying for jobs overseas.

Adlerdriver

I did sound a little harsh. I’m sorry about that. I probably could have delivered the message a little more gently.

I stand by the basic premise of my message and I’ll try to explain why (perhaps make it less “baseless and without merit”)

I’m sure there are “ab-initio” or cadet pilots who have been put through various schools and are out flying the line “successfully” for various foreign airlines. “Successfully” is a pretty vague metric to try to measure, however. I’d say the jury is still out on someone who started in 2005 whether they’re in the right seat of a 777 or Captain on a 747.

I am also old enough (or just familiar enough with the industry) to know U.S. airlines did the same thing in the 60’s (with a VERY, VERY small number of pilots). As someone mentioned, those pilots were hired as second officers. A neighbor of mine hired in the 60’s at UAL spent 19 years on the 727 panel before he was senior enough to hold a right seat – so not a real good comparison, IMO. There’s also no way to know how “good” those pilots were either.

Whether we’re talking about some cadet program in recent years or something from the 60’s, the fact that a company produced an airline pilot that way doesn’t mean that’s the best way to do it. It’s a way to do it but certainly not the best way, IMO.

The nature of modern mainline airline operations does not allow a first officer the opportunity to continue to enhance his flying skills as he flies the line day to day. He needs to have a solid skill set before he shows up.

Autopilot use is part of life at an airline and it comprises almost all flying done by most pilots. Hand flying, when it’s done, is probably accomplished with auto-throttles on and a flight director leading him around by the nose. Even if he hand flies with all the magic off to cruise and during descent (which I doubt happens with much regularity), the crew is probably swapping legs which means the FO is probably only the flying pilot half the time he operates, if that. If he’s on a 777 or 747, then his chances to fly diminish even more with the addition of long haul operations, relief pilots, etc. Long haul pilots at most US airlines have to use the sim pretty regularly to remain current because they can’t get 3 and 3 every 90 days. Relief pilots or “cruise pilots” who never fly tend to be entry level jobs at some airlines. The bottom line is: Once a pilot gets to the right seat of an modern airliner, he’s basically done building the foundational skills he will use for the rest of his career.

I can teach a basic pilot with a small number of hours the rote procedural knowledge necessary to fly a modern airliner (especially with judicious use of the autopilot). You may find a few who might blossom into decent pilots because they were born with nature ability but the average guy will remain average. He’ll never be the same as a pilot who has spent hundreds of hours hand flying, working his scan, basic stick and rudder skills and instrument approaches. He’ll be an adequate systems operator that can fly basic maneuvers, stick to the script, follow company procedures and read a checklist and that is about all. Throw him a serious curve ball and the fact that he really has very little flying skills to fall back on is going to become a serious issue.

Yes, we all had 250 hours at some point in our career. Most likely at that point we weren’t operating a highly automated airliner or trying to find a job doing that. We were instructing, hand flying single pilot cargo planes, flying for the military, etc. building valuable flying skills.

I’ve flown with low time pilots that bypassed the traditional route and are now Captains. I have yet to be impressed. There is no substitute for experience. The kind of experience that gives a pilot a set of foundational skills that he can draw on throughout his career can’t be accumulated in the right seat of an airliner. There’s a reason why top tier airlines and freight companies demand a certain amount of PIC time from their candidates. No amount of occasional “success” stories from carriers hurting for new pilots is going to change my opinion.

Flame away if you must. Cheers.

Molon Labe

Excellent post Adler,I think you very succinctly said a lot of things that need to be said again and again......Especially to the Harvard MBA's , Congress, and LLoyd's of London.

PCLCREW

How about the 250hr FO from India that kicked the autopilot off when the capt was in the back and put that A320 into a dive because he couldnt fly the plane.
I agree... harsh or not its the truth.

The Dominican

True but regrettably this is the way pilots will develop in the future, there is no skill production in the piloting profession anymore like when the military produced large quantity of well trained pilots with a lot of hand flying experience, even that source of professional pilots is going pilot less now a days.

The only way to counter this is training, for each one of this cases of ab initio failures, I give you 100 cases of good F/O's (and eventual captains) that come from ab initio programs at places like Lufthansa, British Airways, All Nippon Airways and many others that have used ab initio programs successfully for decades now

DYNASTY HVY

Lots of good advice to your post and I would suggest that you practice due diligence before making the jump to fly in another country.
Best of luck .


Fred

captjns

First of all it was a Boeing 737-800.

I seem to remember a couple of guys with more than 250 hours each over flying MSP.

More recently a couple of days back landing at the wrong airport in Lake Charles, LA... Sooooo your point????