Skymaster15L

Greetings to all,

I have posted on this board a couple months before, regarding some concerns about life after converting an FAA CPL to EASA ATPL. Initially, the plan was to continue instructing in the States, hopefully apply to a regional airline and work for a couple of years enough to gain the 1,500 hours, line experience, turbine time, etc and THEN consider converting to an ATPL for the EU.

Besides the rather lengthy time interval my original plan imposed, before achieving JAA conversion completion, with questionable conclusions as to whether all the previous experience would put me at a reasonable edge over others applicants in the EU job market ( see http://www.airlinepilotforums.com/fo...ed-europe.html), personal family circumstances that have intervened now dictated a need for me to relocate back to Europe. In an effort to treat everything with optimism (yet also realistically), I am seriously considering starting the conversion process now, while here in the EU; perhpas an earlier start down this anticipated path anyway, will prove more beneficial

I would thus like to seek, if possible, especially from those of you who are currently active in Europe's Flight Ops, an update as to what the status of Europe's aviation market really is, and what it is expected to hold in store? I understand rumors are and always will be aplenty, but is the market really as stagnated and dead as others (besides those from within this forum) have personally told me? Are there any rough ideas as to the presence of a predicable short and long term future with regards to pilot job availability, and if so, what this will mean?

Also, is it really a good time to undergo pilot training under EASA certification at the moment? Has the JAA-EASA switch inadvertently created some unknown legislative gaps/gray areas which will bite me in the rear after I finish converting? Or is it better to just hold my horses for a while, either in starting conversion training, or getting more experience somewhere else (based on my old plan, once the personal circumstances get resolved)?

I do apologize in advance if it seems I'm trying to seek more clarification than what is already available or possible to be known at this point in time for everyone else already here, but I'd just like a more general idea about how things are currently doing, etc, as it is something I lack knowledge in, having been based in the US during all my aviation career up to this point.

Any other advice or words of wisdom are more than welcome

Thank you in anticipation

zondaracer

Greetings.

Let me tel you about my experience and those of my friends who have also done a conversion.

I finished the conversion over a year ago. I converted in the UK (ATPLs and CPL flight test), and I added the MEIR in Spain, MCC in Germany. After finishing, it took another half a year to find an instructor job (after doing a FI rating that cost me €8000).

Here are some things that I have learned...

Not all JAA licenses are the same:

If you go to the UK, it is very expensive. Theory exams are done on paper and it takes 3 weeks or more to get your results. Flight test fees are ridiculous, plus license issue fees, license renewal fees, etc... However, they are very accommodating when it comes to accepting documents from other JAA countries. For example, once you get your license issued, you can easily add a type rating, flight instructor rating, instrument rating, class rating, etc to your license even if it was done in another country.

France is even more expensive, and they won't accept ratings done in other countries (but ironically they will accept ATPL exam passes from other countries).

Spain has relatively good prices, but everything is slow. If you pass your flight test, you might wait 3 months to get your license in the mail (during which time you can't fly because you don't get a temp license in Europe). If you go to another country and get a 777 type rating, Spain won't add it to your license since there are no 777s on the Spanish register.

I could go on and on, some countries seem to be better than others.

Also, if you want to be a flight instructor in the UK, and you do a flight instructor rating in another JAA country, you might find it hard to find employment in the UK, since the Brits have their own way of doing things. These are just examples, so where your license issued and your training done will make a difference.


Next, let me tell you about finding a job. There are definitely more low time pilots than jobs for low time pilots. Most guys who finish their ratings apply to Ryanair, as they are the main company hiring low time guys. Lots of guys who don't get hired at Ryanair seem to apply to Susiair in Indonesia, as this is their backup plan. Ryanair charges €30,000 for the type rating, and you don't get paid until you finish your safety check, which could be 6 months after getting hired.

Of the guys who I know who did a conversion recently, 1 got called up for a Ryanair interview which he will have soon (he got called six months after finishing his conversion). Another guy is still looking for a job 10 months after doing a license conversion, and another guy got hired flying light piston twins in Switzerland 5 months after doing his conversion. I got a job as an instructor as soon as I finished the JAA FI rating, but the conversion took a better part of a year, and due to various circumstances and the length of the FI course, I didn't finish the FI course until 6 months after I finished the conversion.

Now, of all my friends who got a JAA license (not conversion), most who did an instructor rating got an instructor job. One of those instructors went on to Ryanair, another went on to an Air Ambulance gig, and two went on to fly the Airbus (but one in Europe, one in the middle east). Of all the guys who didn't do the FI rating, I only know 1 who got a job so far, and he got a job in Africa on a 737-200 via a connection. One friend got an interview with Ryanair and with Susiair but was unsuccessful with both, so he went back to his old job, as he has sent out dozens of applications without success. Another guy has also sent out about 50 applications with no positive response. Another guy bought an A320 type rating and the type rating provider is having problems finding him an available A320 for him to finish his type rating. And two guys got jobs at Easyjet, but they won't start the type rating until December and then they will go into a holdpool for possibly up to 2 years until they start flying the line.

Long story short, there are some jobs, it is not completely stagnant, but it isn't the land of the plenty either.

Also, the whole license conversion is a pain. If I had stayed in the US (I'm a US citizen), my pilot career would be further along by about 2 years, but like you, that wasn't my priority.

I don't think anyone really knows what the future holds in store. With the Greek Euro crisis, slow/nonexistant economic recovery, and the closure of several major and national airlines in Europe, it currently doesn't look great. Also, for those who are putting all their eggs in the Ryanair basket, Ryanair is expected the receive the last of their deliveries soon, therefore hiring will slow most likely. Honestly though, I don't think anyone really knows what the future holds.

What I observe is that LoCos are growing (Norwegian, Ryanair, Vueling, etc...), and lots of these companies are charging for a type rating. Some companies only have one way to get hired, such as Easyjet via CTC scheme. In fact, CTC seems to hold the hiring for several UK airlines, so you mess it up with CTC and you pretty much lost your chance at half a dozen airlines.

Now, you asked about JAA/EASA transition. I don't think that there is so much of a grey area. There are some changes. Medical certification is supposedly less restrictive. Also, laws will be better harmonized. Let's look at licensing for example:
In the UK, someone with your experience requires taking the ATPL theory course plus exams, CPL flight test, and a minimum of 15 hours of IR training plus IR flight test to do a conversion.
In Switzerland, you actually wouldn't have to take the ATPL theory course but still take the exams, and the minimum 15 hours IR don't exist (15 hour IR training is a UK requirement, not a JAA requirement).
In Spain, you would have to do the ATPL theory course plus exams, the whole IR training syllabus of 55 hours, and whole CPL syllabus of 25 hours.

Under EASA, each country would supposedly have the same rules. There is a transition period and each country can take its time with the transition, but the UK is enforcing these rules starting in July. I don't really see any legislative grey area that will bite you in the rear (at least not that I see).


Ok, sorry if I rambled, your post was long so I wanted to try to cover everything. Let me know if you have more questions.

Skymaster15L

Thank you for that very thorough reply zondaracer,

just a few minutes ago before typing this, I have gotten off the phone with the UK CAA after a series of back and forth conversations that spanned the past few days on and off, concerning any questions or confusions I might have. They have been very very helpful in clarifying things.

Well, I'm certainly glad there are still some opportunities and that things aren't completely kaput, but even as such, I can now see that It will be like this for a while. I guess something to console oneself with during all this, is that regardless of how things are or will be, I'd still need that license conversion done in order to be eligible for a job in the first place. Until I get there, to some degree, it is useless in taking things to heart and worrying about what the future will bring. At the same time however, it pays to get some research done, or listen to others' experience, to make sure you're not blindly heading into something dead as a doorknob.

Regarding the CTC scheme, I've yet do check out how exactly their recruitment process works, and if it is one of those ab initio deals, or where CPL holders (regardless of how they were trained) can still apply. I guess that hardest thing for me to get used to, is the way how differently recruitment operates in the EU vs US; considering that a lot of recruitment for airlines (as I have been lead to believe) is through integrated schemes by academies that supply their graduates to a specific carrier(s). Us foreign convertees seem to be part of a whole 'nother category that has to find it's own way to success to without the guidance of a program or airline.

It is tough to digest this, especially before you start training for something that will be very expensive and occasionally frustrating (the conversion) only to realize that even out of those few opportunities out there, graduates of more official programs will more likely have a paved way into filling those jobs. This being way more different than, as you probably know, the US, where (besides higher hour requirements) a person training at a small field has the same very good chance towards employment as a flight academy graduate (provided both meet the minimums). But then again, you've heard of people that have gotten in as you said, so we can always hope. There's also the possibility that should Europe one day experience a pilot shortage again, carriers will become more accommodating to fill those vacancies, and be less picky.

A few more questions for you if you don't mind; how do find flight instructing in Europe to be, in terms of enjoyment and pay? Although not as common of an avenue to take as in the US, is it still easier to find a FI job than an FO job? Will that extra experience and extra hours (although still on piston planes) be something that you feel will give you a better edge when you apply independently to an airline? You also mentioned splitting up parts of your flight training in Spain and Germany? How much did the CPL conversion cost you in the UK, and the MEIR in Spain? Have you any ideea how much would have the MEIR cost been if done in the UK?
In case I do need to "fractionalize" it's good to know it will be still on to your UK certificate, instead of having to transfer your license to each each state; does that sound like something that will remain valid with the EASA transition?
Appreciate that excellent flow of information from your experiences, once again

Easyflier

Zondaracer summed it up pretty nicely in terms of how difficult it is to find a job in Europe.

I hold dual citizenship, US/French, did everything in the US and fly for a regional in the US. I was able to get a leave of absence end of 09 and came back here in France to look for a job.

The 14 written exams, after studying as a freelance candidate, took me 15 months to complete (I sat the 14 exams in 4 different sessions). I just finished them in May. I have a bit of experience flying and having to go back to basics to pass these exams is very frustrating once you realize 75% of the material covered is, let's be honest, useless. Once you get over that "frustration accommodation period", it becomes smooth sailing.

Nobody here cares about your flight time because all they want is for you to pay for the type rating (reason why I'm going back to my US job in August).
It boils down to this: if you are willing to go through an expensive conversion process, willing to pay up to €30k for a type rating for a shot to be flying in Europe, yet not be guaranteed a job, then do it.

If you are a US citizen, it is better imo to fly in the US, build time and get hired at a Regional to add that experience to your resume. Some flight schools in South Florida will pay you well as a CFI and make you fly as much as legally feasible. Great way to build time and learn.

I'm not trying to discourage you, but being realistic. It's either how much money you have or who you know.

Cheers!

zondaracer

This is partly true, but not 100% true. You are already falling for the advertising gimmicks of the big three UK integrated schools, Oxford, FTE, and CTC.

As far as being a foreign convertee, you will be treated the same as a modular student or a non-sponsored integrated guy. Don't worry so much about that.

Generally speaking, I have heard Oxford claims of 95% hiring rate, but their numbers are not necessarily placements. Guys who found a flight instructor job on their own, or got a job towing gliders go on their "95%" hiring rate. Some even suspect that getting a job at the gas station counts as "finding a job" according to Oxford.

As far as CTC schemes go, there are multiple. Everything from sponsored integrated to guys who have done their modular course elsewhere and apply. If you are modular/foreign convertee like yourself, if you get accepted into the CTC scheme, then you will pay for their MCC course and type rating yourself, and then go into a holdpool. When CTC doesn't have enough integrated students to supply the airlines, you come out of the hold pool and start at an airline. You could be in a hold pool for up to 2 years or more. It is quite crap if you ask me.

But these connected-integrated-hiring schemes are really endemic to the UK, although they are spreading through Europe. Most of the whining you hear on PPrune is from lads in the UK. Here in Spain, I am currently unaware of any integrated schemes where guys get hired directly to an airline through the school's connection (FTE doesn't count as they are really a UK school). Here, it is all about who you know, or what the Spanish call "enchufe".

Finding an FI job vs FO job:
Of the people I know who got a job, all had instructor experience except for two and they found a job via CTC and are still waiting to start the type rating (won't be until December, and then who knows how long they will be in the hold pool). Everyone I know who has done an FI rating so far has found an FI job. Enjoyment, same as in the US really. Pay, I have seen pay as high as 27€ per hour in France, 20GBP an hour in the UK, and 18€ an hour in Spain. I know that there are places in Spain that pay less. I can't speak for the rest of Europe. I know people who were offered jobs before they even finished their FI rating. Not all schools can train for a flight instructor rating. They must have an actual Flight Instructor Course Instructor. Lots of flying clubs don't have a FIC, so they get their instructors from other schools. But just like in the US, you need to go where the demand is, or do your flight instructor rating where you want to work, make a good impression, and they really value a high level of English (which it seems you have).

Yes. Lots of kids in Europe have shiny jet syndrome. They don't see the point in flying a single engine piston for low pay when they could fly a jet at 250hours. It is quite a narrow-minded way of viewing things. I know plenty of guys who did the instructor thing first and it was looked favorably at the airlines. One Air Berlin captain I knwo told me that he actually was able to upgrade to Captain much faster than his colleagues due to his 10 years of flight instructing experience.

As far as costs:
UK
2500 - Bristol Ground School
£952 - CAA written exam fees (14 x £68)
£785 - flight test fee CPLME (expect add'l fee for SE rating)
£785 - flight test fee ME-IR
£238 - initial license issue (add another fee if adding SE)
£341 - initial class 1 medical

The flight training was 290GBP per hour in an Arrow, took me 10 hours, plus rental for flight test.

In Spain, the MEIR conversion I think was €7000, all fees included including examiner fee. It was the cheapest place I could find. The school in the UK where I did the CPL was about the same price, but when you figure in the exchange rate and the UK flight test fee, plus airplane rental for the exam (which was included in Spain), it was about a 2000€ difference.

"fractionalizing" your training in different countries will still be valid after EASA, but the difference is that the examiner will be required to get a briefing from the UK CAA (if you have a UK license but adding ratings outside the UK).

zondaracer

Also, have a look at Keilir Aviation in Iceland. They have a conversion at a very good price, and Icelandic licensing fees are much less than the UK.
Licence Conversion | Keilir Aviation Academy

Another change with EASA transition regarding conversions is that the regulations say that an IR conversion will require training as determined by the administration. In the UK, it used to be 15 hours minimum, but the UK will have to adopt the "training as determined", so nobody really knows if they will say "training required for you will be 15 hours" or if it will be more or less.

Also, from the beginning to the end, you will curse the whole JAA/EASA system and wish that they changed it to the FAA. It is quite radically different here. Everything from having to reserve an instrument approach in advance for IR training (UK), being required to file a VFR flight plan and not being allowed to fly VFR at night (Spain), Surface Class A airspace, to the endless bureaucracy and money hole that is the whole system here. I mean, just to keep your ratings current every year, you have to send a renewal fee to the aviation authorities (139GBP every year in the UK, €50 every year in the Netherlands) etc...... You don't just get a signoff from a flight instructor, but you also have to send in lots of €€€€€€.

stoki

I have done the conversion recently. So far I have only applied to 3 companies, only 1 of which is "hiring" or so they say, the other 2 have stopped, but may start up again. No luck at all so far.

I am not willing to pay for a full TR, for a temporary contract, which is something that severely limits you to finding a job. The whole EU market is full of scumbag deals like the EasyJet gig, or RYR which take advantage of the desperate situation of many newbies. Even Norwegian I hear is hiring for only a 3 year contract of non-permanent nature, and you have to pay for your own TR. Not fun times in Europe, IMO. In the mean while I am in the U.S, I'm doing exactly what you said, I instructed here for a while, and have been flying for the regionals for the past 4.5 years now, on a TP and now on a jet building experience and making very little money. So far none of it has paid off at all. It is all quite frustrating.

bubi352

I did my conversion also a couple years ago. I did it as a backup plan with Naples Air Center with distance learning and then went to Spain. This is probably the best place to do it. It is cheap and I got it done relatively quickly with no issues. I paid everything included for the IR ME $3000 when other places in UK, France, Belgium, Germany were advertising closer to $10,000!!!! They are hurting for business so I am sure you can get a good deal and get it done fast. Look at 'Aerodynamics Malaga'.

On another note, yep, things are not looking good at all in Europe. A lot of airlines are now adapting to the European 'recession'. Air France announced a reduction in labor, EasyJet is closing its Spain base,... and that's just the beginning.

zondaracer

Yeah, I went to Aerodynamics to convert the MEIR. They are still the cheapest around but their price has gone up a little. They have a low student to instructor ratio, and can get you done in less than two weeks most of the time. Compare that to minimum 4 weeks in the UK (just to get 10 hours of sim time and 5 hours of multiengine instrument time), that just gives you an idea of how slow things are done in Europe, aviation-wise. None of this All ATPs get done in 90 days, forget about it.

On a personal note, I wouldn't recommend Naples Air Center. I'm glad it worked out for you Bubi, but they don't have the best reputation for JAA training.

Not to mention that Spanair and Malev recently shutdown, BMI Baby will be closed down, Thomas Cook with debt issues, and I could go on and on. There are some airlines succeeding, and some new startups, but seems for every good news, there is twice the bad news.