Finished it. Great read, although a little disorganized. Glad I didn't pull the trigger on doing a China contract.

 

Thanks for stopping by to leave your comments Cactus! Yes, it's a little disheveled... but I hope it's not too bad to distract from the essentials of information that we tried to pass forward.

If you have a chance, can I ask what contract you were looking at, when and why at the time you decided nil on the offer?

Best,
C.S.

 

Shenzhen on the 757 when I was still current, then (you are going to laugh) Tianjin when I was requal'ed on the Airbus.

I never made it further than e-mails to the recruiting agencies. What stopped me was a change in our leave of absence policy and the fact that I was approaching 55. The crazy ATP written and the delays in training were another factor. I had an interview set up at Korean that I would have taken before a China contract.

I'm glad you had an interesting experience. I think it's good to get out and push your personal limits sometimes. We had a few guys go to Deer and a couple of other carriers. They liked it but were ready to come back.

 

Read it and have talked to some new hires i have flown with back in the states, that flew in china on the airbus. This is pretty much spot on and maybe a little to kind. Some of the stories I have heard from ex contractors in china are scary.

 

BBBby, thanks for dropping in to share what you've heard! Can you do me a favor and please turn those guys on to this thread and book OK? Indeed, we did necessarily have to pull a few punches (regrettably as is the nature of things) to keep some of the stories plausibly anonymous per the request of Captains who were involved therewith. Others didn't care a rat's patootie and so the more outrageous stuff is actually quite true to life (the other stuff is accurate too, just missing some gory details).

What pilots who read recruiters' blast emails about exciting offers of {{ca$h!!!!!}} don't understand, myself included once upon a time, is the reality of living and working in China. This is why the book was assembled and 400+ pages written, edited and revised numerous times over the course of a year or two: to provide insight to the people who need it to make an informed decision... and be a little entertaining along the way by talkin' some trash and making some funnies.

Again, thanks for your comments and pass the info on to the newhires you mentioned.

C.S.

 

have finally found some time to reply this post. First i would like to thank the OP for writing this book. Having been in China for the last 5 years it was a very welcome comic relief. I have since passed this little gem along to many of my coworkers. So now i wanted to give the most unbiased opinion on coming to China and working here that i could. A little background on myself, i have been an expat for over 10 years. I have been to 95 different countries and lived in 13. China for the last 5 years. I am from the states. You can take my opinion for what its worth but i think i have a pretty good background to be able to comment on this book.

First let me say for those back home if you have a job at a Legacy DO NOT LEAVE to come here. Unless you owe money to the mob i couldn’t see any reason at all to come to China when your quality of life will be drastically changed. However if your on a leave then yes it might make sense. Do NOT look at just the salary because behind those numbers is a lot of hard work, patience, and sacrifice.

I do not work for Tianjin, i work for Shenzhen Airlines. HOWEVER, i do have a good friend with the initials SS that did work at TJA from around 2011-2014. The stories he told me were the same as the OP, spot on!

I do not BS, i tell it like it is. I am not here to promote anyone or company. I have had interactions with HNA, Juneyao and China Southern. Juneau seemed OK, CSA was OK but from friends that are there now on the B787 its very disorganized. HNA was a complete disaster. Like a monkey show. And from what current friends there on the 787 tell me it still is.

Now about the book. I would like to share my opinion on what is good and what is not so good.

GOOD POINTS ABOUT LIVING HERE IN SHENZHEN

1. I came here 5 years ago from Japan. I managed to pay off my House, my Car, my Motorcycles, buy properties, invest, and by the end of this contract next year i will have enough to semi retire. I am only in my very early 40s.
2. I met my wife here. I also met many woman here and had many great times. Its like disneyland.
3. I have gotten to see some cool things and places. Meet some very unique people.
4. Hong Kong is right next door. And Shenzhen is not the real china. Its very westernized. Health care is good at the Hong Kong or Western Hospitals here. TCM has been good too but not for everything.
5. My apartment is very nice. Everything works unlike my experiences in india and Africa.
6. I have a car here. The driving is Horrendous but ill touch on that later.
7. There is lots to do. Nightclubs are great except for the smoking. Shopping malls are modern and good.
8. One hour from Shenzhen you have some very nice beaches.
9. The food is good here if you like Chinese food.
10. Coffee shops are numerous here and some very good ones.
11. If you like hot weather (i do not) then you would love it here.
12. There are good markets here to buy fake products. Some are just as good if not better. I had lost my power cord to my IMAC. And i had also broken the glass on my IPHONE. I found both here that were just as good and much much cheaper.

BAD POINTS ABOUT LIVING IN SHENZHEN AND OTHER PARTS OF CHINA

1. The OP never talked about driving in China that much. Let me be the one to tell you that these people are some if not the absolute worst drivers on the planet. Esp the female drivers. Its almost like they do not even know they are in a car. Never use blinkers but masters at using the horn.
2. People here generally are slow as hell. Esp the drivers. Pls name one Chinese F1 race car driver????
3. Accidents ala plenty. Totally moronic driving skills. There is a reason more chinese drive bicycles than cars, you can kill less people that way.
4. SZ is not really polluted but Beijing, Tianjin, other places are HORRIBLE. That stuff really scares me. Ironically sometimes there is no pollution in BJ. Esp when there is an important summit going on. The call it the APEC blue
5. Manners do not exist. Forget about people holding the door. Spitting here drives me nuts. Totally disgusting. The loud talking will drive you insane.The word courteous and considerate is nonexistant here.
6. Forget about manners while driving. Its insane the stuff i have seen.
7. China is getting expensive.
8. Be careful where and what you eat. You can get very ill. I would NEVER eat the food off the vendors in the street.
9. Police are VERY lazy here. Clowns with uniforms. But in some ways its much better than in America which IMHO is turning into a police state.
10. There are many fake things. Be careful as the liquor your drinking could be fake
11. Banking here is a complete headache. The OP was incorrect about sending money. As foreigners we can do as much as we want. There is NO LIMIT. However you must show your tax receipts from the company, your passport, your contract and as of 2015 your salary slip. I have sent 140,000 USD at one time back home and never a problem. But be prepared to spend atleast one hour. Also many times in China the lazy workers will pass the buck so you need to be forceful with what you want.
12. Noise. These people have no idea what volume control is. Take for example there walkie talkies, their ATMS, when they talk on the phone, the speaker in the cockpit, all have only 2 settings for these morons. OFF and LOUD
13. The people can be very annoying. There is a good joke. What is the difference between a racist and tourist in China? TWO WEEKS!!!

GOOD POINTS ABOUT FLYING IN CHINA
1. What would take you maybe 7 to 15 years to do in the states you can do right away here, that is be Captain.
2. Some companies will type you on B787, A320, and A330/340 as well as business jets. I PERSONALLY know MANY people that have done this.
3. The best part of actually flying in China is flying OUTSIDE of china. Flying domestic is the 7th level of HELL.

BAD POINTS ABOUT FLYING IN CHINA
1. Ok this part could be a book in and of itself. Lets start with Delays. Delays here are more than ANYWHERE in the world. It is a FACT that Beijing, and Shanghai have around a 30 % on time rate. They are the most delayed airports in the world. I would venture to say that the average delay over my 5 years here has been 1 hour. That is AVERAGE. I have had 10 hour delays. All this week i have had 4 hour delays on every flight. The total control of AIRSPACE by the Chinese PLAF is the main reason. Other factors are inept and zero management skills in both the airlines and ATC.

2. Flying in China is pure HELL. My first year here was fine, and then it slowly got worse and worse. You get to a point here where you just don’t care about anything anymore. Its more like a game, and a game of survival that is. Trying to deviate weather is a pain in the ass. ATC on many occasions will ask you to do the most ridiculous of things. How many times in Beijing have i pushed back to taxi to RWY 36R and then told to make a U-Turn basically and hold as our takeoff time changed. So we are sitting there wasting fuel when they just could have simply left us at the gate.

3. ATC in China sucks. They truly have no clue. They do not even use correct phraseology and they love to use the words EXPEDITE and MAINTAIN. You will hear many times an ATC controller tell you to descend to lets say 6000 Meter (19700FT) and you are like 280 miles away from the airport and this guy tells you descent rate more than 2500 FPM. Go ahead and ask him why. His answer will be traffic. Ok traffic where? Oh its 12 o’clock same direction 80 kilometers away. ***!!!!!

The real reason they have you do this is so they can hand you off to the next guy but they lie to you all the time. Ok and lets talk about use of the word MAINTAIN. Not sure where you all flew, but ATC where i come would use it like (Hawker N125CF maintain 2000FT until intercept the GS your cleared ILS RWY 22L at Newark. Well here in China you will be flying along and all of a sudden out of the blue ATC will say, Maintain 2700 meters. Your like HUH??? Even when they have you change radio freq. they tell you maintain level. It totally screws with your head because it makes you think you did something wrong. It is TRULY annoying.

4. I am not sure about TJA, but at SZA you have a crew bus that picks you up at designated points and takes you to work. Myself i have a car. The bus SUCKS because 1. It picks you up way early, 2. your the LAST one to be dropped off. So just to give you an example of how retarded the airline is, and how in China the LEFT hand NEVER talks to the RIGHT. Today my flight is supposed to be from SZ to SHA at 1615 local. Well i call and they tell me the plane is still in Chengdu with no takeoff time.

So at our company we need to be there 1:35 before departure time or 30 mins before inbound plane landing time whichever comes last. So since it takes me about 35 mins to drive to airport i tell the “dispatcher” pls call me when the plane takes off from CD. She calls me FORTY mins after it took off to tell me its landing at 310. Ok so i just need be there at 240. Great!

Well, i get there and my FO comes to me and says, Oh Captain the landing time is 430, our plane coming from Wuxi. WHAT??? Oh yea they changed planes. So now i am at the company at 3pm and now have another 1 hour and 30 mins to sit in the crew room with the smoking copilots (chainsmokers) or goto the hotel which would clearly extend my duty time. Plane gets here, we go out and i ask the FO to find out about flow control.

ATC tells us our departure time is 1207 at night!!!!!!!! Well our company never put in a new flight plan when they changed. Then this idiot at ATC tells us to report ready which means all pax onboard. Well how the F am i supposed to do that if i got 8 hours to go, board the pax and have them go crazy????

An hour later ATC tells us we can leave now. *** again…..

This is a typical day here.

5. Passengers here are animals. Just go on youtube and type in crazy chinese passengers. Nuff said

6. Copilots here are not that bad and some are very close friends of mine. For the most part they fly ok. However, they cannot fly a visual to save their life. They have no concept that flying is an art not a science. They way they do things will **** you off. Talk about finger banging the FMC, well these automatons cannot put in a HDG, ALT, SQWUAK CODE, OR FREQ without typing it into the FMC first. It drives me NUTS.

7. Pilots in China fly SLOW AS HELL. Almost in reverse. They have no idea what the hold short line is. Just hang out at 36R in Beijing and look left and right. You will see that they are always holding short of the CAT 2 line. They are too afraid to come to the actual hold short line.Its ridiculous especially when your taxing past the and that A330 tail is sticking out cause the moron won’t pull all the way up!

8. How many times i have been blinded by taxi lights or ldg lights because they refuse to turn them off even when they are facing right at you. IDIOTS!

SOME OTHER KEY POINTS

1. This place will make you crazy. If your already crazy it will make you insane.
2. Woman is the only good thing here and money
3. You will change after spending a few years here. You will grow to HATE flying. You will be applying for a job at Walmart in no time
4. Even writing this I’m getting ****ed off. These people are the most ANNOYING on earth.
5. There is a reason they copy, they learn by rote memorization, they are the slowest humans on this planet.
6. Lets configure to Flaps 1 at 20 miles away Captain because i don’t know how to fly 210 or 180 to the marker!
7. Without and FMC they would die
8. Their idea of aerobatics is a 30 degree banked turn
9. Watch them drive in an underground parking lot its hilarious. Ya know if the incline that goes to outside? Chinese never will drive up the incline if there is someone waiting to pay. They will ALWAYS wait at the bottom. They do not have the skill to make the payment to the attendant while holding the E brake or normal break.
10. Again Chinese drivers are the worst. Leading cause of accidents is chinese.

 

Like, +1, Favourite and all that x2!

Very well said. Agree with everything except for the women part - Asians have never done it for me, I prefer Scandinavian women, which is why I married one and moved to Denmark. But other than that totally spot on for me. I am doing a 4 week on/4 week off and the best part of my life is the 4 weeks off at home in Europe. I despise flying in China and in a year and a half I am starting to really dislike aviation altogether. The delays, incompetence and paranoia of the Chinese pilots (and management) really grates on me. For now the money and time off still outweigh the headaches, but the scale is getting pretty close to even and I can see within six months me being ready to jump ship to some place else in the world.

 

Curious, if anyone cares to share, how does flying as an expat in Japan compare to flying in China or Korea?

I've been to Japan a few times as a tourist and was always pleased with the general cleanliness, order, and politeness of the country and people. How is the Japanese cockpit/airline culture in comparison to the Chinese?

 

I spent a year working in Japan. I hated it. Living part was good, working for a Japanese company was not. They have the biggest double standards, think with horse blinders on, and have procedures that will drive you crazy. Just look at how long the training takes!!!!

China- contract is "flexible" can be good or bad. Money is a lot more than Japan. The applications are 1000 percent less complicated than Japan. In my opinion lifestyle for fun much better than Japan

Japan- extremely rigid with absolutely zero thinking outside the box. Very racist and cold.

As much as after 5 years in China I can't wait to be finished I wouldn't have last 3 in Japan. I have never felt unwelcome in China but I absolutely did in Japan.

I would take China way over Japan anytime.

 

ASpd, thank you for taking the generous amount of time and effort to post your detailed thoughts and opinions. They are very welcome, the more so because of the breadth of your experience. While our small group at FUD central consists of fairly diverse backgrounds, our combined effort does not approach the number of countries you have flown in! And it is really great to get some intel from SZ; none of us were from there (though we did have several stories contributed from outside TJ).

Respectfully, I'd like to take the liberty of adding to one of your comments for the sake of our audence:
What I'd like to do is initiate a discussion of something I am confident you will have great insight on; namely, the decision making process.

What a lot of expats get smacked with, in the face, with a tire, is the realization early on (after the interview pink cloud has dissipated) that QAR data (FOQA) is used directly against the pilot. The problem with the concept of flying outside of china is that you are still encumbered with the fact that the QAR is busily recording every action (or non-action) you take on deck. Banking the aircraft over 30-deg for more than 2 seconds is just as valid on approach into SEA as it is for PEK and you will be doing a carpet dance to explain yourself, depending on the severity of the flight department (I heard SZ was a little more laid back than Hainan group).It's madness, and what's more, (the insidious part) is that it WILL begin to colour your experience, particularly if you are a fairly new captain with only a thousand hours or so under your belt. Even then, the more experienced guys who had time in the training department back home complained to me how they felt their standards were sliding; this coming on one occasion at the pub over adult beverages from a very good colleague who had instructor time and over 10k hours, most of which was on type in the left seat.

I've been researching the field of study that looks closely at decision making; there are some decent gateway articles on the subject at Wiki:


The PROBLEM here is that you start thinking in terms of what action will/won't bring punishment to you after you land and THIS is exceedingly dangerous in my mind; it is the crux of the issue and it is what ultimately led several of us to bid the Chinese adieu and look for jobs elsewhere.

Indeed, you are faced with extreme lifestyle challenges that haunt your every hour outside work. But when your are confronted with the problem that your every decision will be taken apart by the same artless people you describe as the FOs who can't land to save their lives... It becomes untenable and as you say, a WHEN not an IF you leave.

Don't be fooled.

C.S.