Originally Posted by CloudSpirit

Hang on a minute fellas, please let's keep the ad-hominem to a minimum... If you have a point to make, I really want to read it. Appeals to the degree of astronautism of this member or that post doesn't really go very far.

Leave it to the graceful (LOL) pages of FUD to take care of any healthy doses of rudeness


That's OK. In the introduction of FUD we recognized this and tried to speak to the effect that the book was not for everyone. Besides pointing out the likelihood of offending certain folks' sensibilities, I tried to be vocal that we were not undertaking the endeavor of "...correlating wombat populations with the abundance of fruit trees in Quindao." There was a specific audience we had in mind, and that specific audience as you presciently noticed (Typhoon) is the kind of sometimes fence-riding, newbie contract pilot with 500-1000 fresh hours under his belt who is dazzled by the money offers and doesn't know what he is getting himself into. To be totally honest, I personally was that guy and I know of plenty of others who shared that experience. There is a need being addressed here, and we chose to go about it a certain way.

Despite the fact that I consider myself exceptionally open minded (believe it or not) with friends of a diverse spectrum of demographics, when one DOES get into that system over there in China and get hooked into the I.V. of crack-money, one tends to lose sight of what really matters and the conflict between I can make just one more pay-period and what the hell am I doing here begins to unravel one's coping skills and tolerance. I experienced a lot of anger personally, and I lent an ear to compadres over a beer at the pub who had just as much anger and shock at what they had gotten themselves into. IF we can do anything to address this disconnect, our mission is accomplished. We've received numerous messages of thanks and appreciation so far; I think our mission objective has been met and will persist as a certain legacy for future waves of prospective pilot merc newbies.



My thought on this, shared by many at FUD central is that America and Britain designed, developed and innovated the modren jet transport airliner (I've heard it said that the TSB of Canada has also contributed significantly, especially in the case of CFiT--there are other contributors in the Western sphere of influence). I also ran into exceptionally experienced instructors at FSI who made the same remarks; this thinking is not unique to a single, foaming at the mouth, ignorantly biased individual. To this end, the Boeing and Airbus aeroliners, emulated by a "new" wave of manufacturers like Embraer and Canadair, have been designed with a flight deck culture in mind that transcends and leaves behind local culture. Our "side" invented and developed this stuff, I'd say we have a right to declare what is the standard and what is not; I don't go for that whole "we should be ashamed because we have been innovators and world leaders" bull-ogna and give up the farm. No. I'm also not saying that America is not above critique; but, this is NOT that thread. I am sure it exists elsewhere for people to go pontificate on... I'm pontificating about other things here.

Quick question along this line of debate: I'm curious, why is it that the Chinese have been hiring so many foreign pilots anyhow? Why are they offering wages of such grandiose proportions?


Now, in some ways you are right: to point out that there are droves of (slaves) people walking through traffic cleaning up the roads in Tianjin has nothing to do with flight deck culture is 100% correct. To say that harvesting organs has nothing to do with culture on deck is... 90% correct. To say that kids are taking a dump in the aisle of row 18 has nothing to do with culture on deck... well, we're starting to get some traction: the acorn does not fall far from the tree. Smoking, sleeping, talking on your phone... these are things I've seen aplenty on deck in China, and it speaks of a disconnect between leaving your local culture at the door and entering the flight deck as a disciplined individual, ready to fly.

I'm not saying problems are absent from flight decks in America; what I AM asking is whether YOU are prepared to get your wee-wee slapped time and again in a foreign theater of operations where your only recourse is, as Probe pointed out, leaving. Are you brave enough to go over there in the first place; if you can't hack it, are you brave enough to leave; can you hack it when they tell you to go?

C.S.

Originally Posted by NEDude

I for one am grateful to read your posts. I am finding myself in the same boat of wondering how many more pay cycles I can make it through before I go crazy.

The airline I work for in China is the most unprofessional and unsafe outfit I have ever worked for, and that includes the crappy little Beech 1900 operator I spent the first five years of my career with. In the past year and a half the airline has implemented an extremely harsh punishment system for even minor infractions. A friend of mine was two knots over the limit for being stable at 1000' in visual conditions (in other words very hard to see on speed tape), and he was considered stable by 960 feet, yet the company fined him a half a month of pay and suspended him without pay for another two weeks. Seven months later the company decided to ground him until he took a command leadership test because of the unstable approach. Of course they forgot to tell him and it took his inquiring why he was not on the schedule before they would tell him. Then it took them two more weeks of being grounded before they could get him in for his test, so he lost nearly another three full weeks of pay from that. All told his being unstable by 2 knots for 40 feet cost him over $20,000.

Recently we had a couple of pilots miss some radio calls. I am going to assume they are Chinese nationals who forgot because if they were expats they would have told everyone the names and how much they were fined, but that information was not presented. But now we all have to take radio communication course and test and the company is requiring reports on all suspected missed radio calls.

When we as expats, who come from Europe, the United States, Canada and elsewhere, ask for some data about the hows and whys of incidents, sort of like getting FOQA/ASAP data like several U.S. airlines provide, we are told the information is irrelevant for safe flight. In their mind telling us who is bad and how much they were fined is a better approach.

As much as I understand that it is their part of the world and their culture, as you mentioned, aviation has been developed by the western world. The aircraft we operate are western designed and (in most cases) built. ICAO regulations have been developed overwhelmingly by the western world. All of us expats have grown up in a western culture, learning aviation in western world and built up most of our vast experience in western aviation. Treating expats the same way you treat these young and inexperienced Chinese pilots who learn strictly by rote memorisation is counter productive and ultimately unsafe. I have already found myself at times starting to worry about whether I accidentally exceeded QAR limit (has not come close to happening yet) instead of focusing on the immediate task at hand.

Anyway, I could go on and ramble some more. But I agree with you and I am actively trying to find a way out of China now as I am pretty miserable much of the time. The problem is the pay check and time off are impossible to match anywhere else so it will be hard to wean myself and my family away from that.

Originally Posted by Probe

Sounds like it is time to leave. I needed a break as well. I left 3 years ago. I am ready to give it another go, however.

The QAR fines are part of the system. We both knew that when we signed up. I know it now, going back. I am a volunteer.

Why does it pay so much? Well, the joke in the contract world is that if it pays a lot, it is because nobody wants to work there. If it is a commuting contract, it is because nobody wants to live there.

For me, I enjoyed the job in China. Unstable? Well, go around. Or do what I do and make my personal stabilized approach criteria at 2000' instead of 1000. I went around 4 or 5 times in 2 years because the FO messed up a non precision approach, or approach control kept us too high, too long.

I might a lot of expats working at Shenzhen, Hainan, and Air China. The vast majority were happy working there. There were a few who weren't, but that applies to every job.

Unfortunately internet forums tend to be filled primarily with these last few individuals.

Originally Posted by NEDude

One thing to keep in mind with the Chinese is that China spent the better part of a millennium trying to isolate itself from the rest of the world, including even its own neighbours. In fact China has only really tried to reach out and become part of the global community over the past 25 years or so. That is part of the reason even their neighbours have a hard time dealing with the Chinese (I am talking on a one to one and tourist type of level, not on a government level - although that is an issue as well). China in many ways has developed over the last 500+ years in an alternate reality and now is trying to make the rest of the world adapt to its ways. I always tell people that China is really a third world country with first world window dressing.

Originally Posted by NEDude

If it is not time to leave, it will be soon. The QAR fines are relatively new at my company, at least the amounts and the way they are assessing them. It was a formally announced change at the beginning of this year, so no, it was not what I signed up for. I think at my company the only happy expats are the guys from Mexico. Every single other guy is not happy. Many have left and the rest of us, from Europe, North America and South America, are all looking to leave or will not renew the contract. We lost 25% of our expat pilot group in three months from guys not renewing or resigning.

I do agree with you about increasing the stabilised criteria, I do the same thing, I am stable at 2,000 feet. But the punishment for even a minor violation, one that would be hard to detect without a computer, is draconian and has the opposite effect of being safe. The entire world knows this with the exception of the Chinese.

One thing to keep in mind with the Chinese is that China spent the better part of a millennium trying to isolate itself from the rest of the world, including even its own neighbours. In fact China has only really tried to reach out and become part of the global community over the past 25 years or so. That is part of the reason even their neighbours have a hard time dealing with the Chinese (I am talking on a one to one and tourist type of level, not on a government level - although that is an issue as well). China in many ways has developed over the last 500+ years in an alternate reality and now is trying to make the rest of the world adapt to its ways. I always tell people that China is really a third world country with first world window dressing.

Originally Posted by airspeed1974

[QUOTE

Sitting in the cockpit, in ORD, La Garbage, or Heathrow, pull out your smartphone and record 30 seconds of video. That video will show hundreds of people, ground support equipment, safety equipment. It is seemingly strewn everywhere. Some moving randomly, some probably hasn't moved in 8 years. They are like garbage dumps.
The Hold Short line has a lineup of 15 jets, all burning gas.

So its better to sit there in BJ, SH, or HZ delayed EVERY single day for 2-6 hours? Its better to takeoff from 36R in BJ only to go into holding 10 mins after takeoff? Or how about step climb and descend 20 times for a 2 hour flight wasting fuel and constant throttle movements because of all these changes.

Or lets descend at 3000FPM 200 miles from the airport for traffic thats 100 kilometers away SAME direction. Yea, efficiency at its finest....



Go to the vast majority of Chinese airports. There are aircraft on the ramp. If the aircraft is going somewhere soon, there are 3 or 4 baggage handlers loading bags, and then they completely disappear. Including ALL of their equipment. The fueler fuels, and completely disappears. There is probably only 1 tug in use (supertug), for the whole airport. 2 if there are 2 runways.
The ramp is quiet, sedate, and nearly empty. It is almost like the airport is closed.

OMG, quiet? Pls show me one place that is quiet in China except UNDERWATER!!!


One tug can push back enough aircraft fast enough to feed one runway. If you work for a Chinese airline, once you push back, you will not come to a stop until you lineup on the runway, 75% of the time.

Your right, you will just have 90 degree offcourse diversions, orbits, and the worst vectoring ever...


All of this is done with the smallest number of ground staff you have ever seen at an airport.

Yes who totally block the plane when your trying to come out. ALA CHINESE FIRE DRILL

It was, by far, the leanest, smoothest, most reliable operation I have ever been involved with in aviation. I have never seen anything like it, before, or since. UAL, and US airports are 3rd world by comparison.

What planet are you on man? Words like smoothest, reliable do NOT belong in CHINESE AVIATION. How about INEFFICIENCY, EXPEDITE, NEGATIVE, OFFSET, MAKE ORBIT, TIME NOT DETERMINED, FLOW CONTROL, yea thats more like the China i know.

US Airports are 3rd world? Really? Next time you are at Shenzhen on taxiway C1 for RWY 15 please tell me who had the retarded idea of putting the amber lights BEHIND the HOLD SHORT LINE....creating an easy mistake if you do not happen to see the line and EXPECT it to be where the lights are when they are actually after the line!!!!



But they run an aviation system to the highest level I have ever seen, at least in some ways.

Originally Posted by NEDude

This is the first time i have ever heard this from anyone. Ever