Stop calling it 121
 

Going through the NetJets thread and the comparison with the 121 is funny.

Stop comparing with what you call 121. It's not 121. The majority of the 121 airlines offer crap pay with crap benefits and employees are treated like crap. The majority; Air Wisconsin, Envoy, TSA, GoJet, Compass, Skywest, CommutAir, Republic, Piedmont, PSA, Expressjets, Silver Airways, Cape Air, Horizon, Mesa are 121 airlines.

Just semantics, but pretty important difference in pay/benefits/QOL, a grand canyon of difference between these and the Majors. Even the lack of pay during the first 3 months of training and the average $4,300/month at Spirit Year 1 is better than the above.

Start using the word "Majors". Fits what you want to describe and c compare NJA or Flex with.

Is NJA considered an entry-level turbine job, like the regional airlines you listed?

I think people look at NJA as a spectrum like you would look at any job. The majority of career NJA pilots are airline refugees that were once furloughed, so NJA then became their career job. You can make any job a career for any reason, but in 2019 it’s hard to understand why anyone would pay tens of thousands of dollars to get all your certs and ratings, to pick a job that over a career will earn you millions less, work you harder and give you less days off.

It’s a great metric to aim for. Work rules, security, pay, retirement etc are better at the major airlines. Even with salaries being under pre 9/11, the money made for the amount of time on duty, is much higher than NJA, and it probably always will be, so keep aiming for the stars and maybe you’ll only hit the moon, but t makes perfect sense that airlines would be used as comparison for compensation purposes. Who else would NJA use? Corporate pilot salaries vary greatly as do the work rules. The only consistent target to aim for is 121.

I’m not following. Are we talking about comparing NJA to a regional air carrier that operates under Part 121 of the FAR. Or all Part 121 carriers? Part 121 simply stipulates the required regulation an air carrier must adhere to. So yes while Envoy and American Airlines are separate companies operating under the same rules (Part121). I agree their compensation package do not compare. I would agree comparing regionals and NJA is not a very good comparison. Majors vs NJA one might argue compensation and work conditions would be a very good debate.

Seems fitting as long as other Frax and GA are compared to NetJets.

😂

When does the current NJASAP agreement come up for re-negotiation? Are there many NetJet pilots who are interested in taking a on the kind of bargaining posture that might lead to significant increases in pay and conditions?


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Just semantics.
members keep on using the term 'part 121' as if all part 121 were majors airlines while 60-70% are not.
Let's compare apple to apple and use the term "majors" when comparing Netjets or Flexjets.

Not sure there is a point to your argument. I see what you are saying, but this is high level semantics right here....

Commutair + Envoy + GoJet + Piedmont + Republic + Wisky + Compass + Endeavor + Expressjet + Horizon + Mesa + PSA + Skywest + Trans States = ~20,000 Pilots.

Delta + United + American + SWA = ~52,000 pilot

While the percentage of Major airlines compared to regional airlines might not hit 60-70% - the number of pilots in the 121 world is easily 60-70% employed by Major Airlines.

To not go crazy, I didn't just total up every airline listed in "regional" but instead used my own metric of "airline that operates as a subcontractor for a major airline" to determine which ones to count. Didn't bother counting Alaska, Spirit, JB, Allegiant, Frontier, UPS, Fedex as "Majors" because people use the term "Big 3 plus 1" or "Big 3" as a stand-in for what is generally accepted as the Majors.

The impression that regional pilots make up a majority of 121 flying might be inferred because they make up such a disproportionately high number of people on APC due to: Age; and "more actively looking for a new job"

What Pug also didn't include, are Fedex, UPS, and all the ACMI carriers. Those encompass another 15,000 pilots easily and they are all 121.

I am not sure anyone is ever really confused at when somebody compares NJA to part 121. They are talking about comparable companies in their respective sub industries. NJA is considered the top of the fractional industry, so when you compare 121 to NJA you are comparing top tier 121 companies. I am honestly surprised anyone had confusion about that.

I definitely agree :)

Major airlines
 

While we're being pedantic, your use of "major" is technically incorrect. The DOT defines a major airline as one with more than a billion dollars of revenue. Envoy, Republic, and Skywest are all technically "major airlines". You're giving people a hard time about saying 121 when it's pretty well understood that they're talking about the top paying legacy airline jobs while in the same breath using the term "majors" incorrectly.

I didn't want to surf over the pedantic but was amused staying by the semantics.

Understood that when we use the 121 as the comparison model, we understand that we are referring to the top paying jobs airlines at the 121s (in which category I would, pedantic or not, include B6, NK, AA, DL, UA, SWA, F9, AS, HA and G4). So let's stick to 'the 121s" :D

Not really sure what you’re trying to get at with this...argument/point. Quality of life / benefits are in the eye of the beholder. Being an FO at a 121, er...regional... sorry.... is a pretty straight forward gig - especially living in base. Some FOs make some fairly nice $ for a 20 something, building valuable 121 experience and eventually 121 pic experience.

To the jet and home - pretty easy. To each their own, but the thought of loading bags, catering, ‘$hitters full’, etc... no thanks. Pay now or pay later. I’ll pay now and delay my gratification. Way more to this than immediate $$.

Ok from now on we all refer to top tier carriers as “Super Mega Major Epic Legacy airlines”. [emoji13]

-blink


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Well since there is absolutely no comparison nowadays between NJA and Major airlines let’s just say from now on all comparisons are regionals vs NJA when the phrase 121 is used.

It’s most likely more realistic anyway, they both are a stepping stone to the majors. I don’t mean any disrespect since you can make a good living at both but you see people leave NJA/Regionals for Major airlines you do NOT see the flow going the other way unless it’s age 65.

I agree. NJA vs. regional 121 is a better comparison. I think the OP is still living in yesteryear. Legacy 121 and NJA aren’t even in the same ball park. 1st year is close but you’re still coming out ahead at a Legacy 121 carrier. Then 2nd year youre making similar if not more than a NJA captain all while having more days off even if you’re flying narrow body domestic.

I’m at PSA. While the NJA group is making more than I am....it’s not by much. And I would argue even if PSA was my final stepping stone and I had to start over... I would still go to PSA or a few other regionals before NJA since the pay gap has closed quite a bit and you have a lot more schedule flexibility at the airlines. I haven’t even been here 5 years yet and I should be pretty close to 125k this year while getting 15-18 days off (of my choosing) every month. Or as some people on here like to say... I only had to work 4-5 months this year after vacation. This includes a 20% pay raise in April. So next year I should be close to 140k. Also, some of the other regionals have better work rules. My buddies at endeavor are making over 150k with similar days off. FOs at PSA are making 60k-70k. Endeavor and Republic FOs are making 70k-90k. This DOES NOT include bonuses. Yes that’s lower than NJA but with the schedule flexibility it’s almost a wash. I’ve read of some NJA pilots making significantly more but it sounds like those guys are working their butt off almost living out of a suitcase. Not for me.

Personally if you’re looking for a career then I’d say NJA is the winner. If you’re looking at just 5-7 years then moving on I would say the pay is only slightly less at a regional, but the QOL is much better. And the pay will continue to go up for a few more years. Career LCC vs. career NJA then LCC would be the winner.

there is a huge misconception here. NetJets is not a stepping stone to Major/Legacy airlines. It happens occasionally but is far from the norm.

With exceptions (which we won't get into here), you need quality turbine PIC time to get on at a Major/Legacy. That is not happening at NJA if you are thinking of going there now. With an upgrade time of....13ish years?

You might build 400 SIC hours in a year, possibly in a jet that (certification wise) doesn't even require a 2nd pilot. That is not moving the needle as much as going to a regional, getting 800-1000 121 SIC a year, and after a few years getting PIC time.

It is all about earning more points on PilotCredentials to get an interview and you'll rack those points up much much faster at a Regional than at NJA.
You'll have better TMAAT interview stories from NJA, but if you don't get "the call" it doesn't really matter.

To be fair, you and I both left for majors lol

Exactly...

They’re coming in droves after the pink slip for hitting 65. To put the crop to this mule one more time...I’ve flown w many ex airline types that to the man said 121 was far superior in pay and schedules. I doubt very many ex-nutjeters went to a legacy and pine for the good ol’ days of dragging the cat box out of a Ce560.

The OP was saying... when posters keep comparing both and say ng how life/benefits/pay is so much better at the "121", that it should be underlined ed that it is at the majors/legacy, that "life is like paradise on earth", not ALL 121, and especially not the regionals and definitely not PSA, but it's definitely worth it for the 10 years flow.

LOL, funny there. YEAR 1 at NJA, flying a 20,000 lbs aircraft, is $80K or $85K, and after FDP and other overtime a Year 1 guy average what you make at Year 5 as a Captain. :confused:

and if you want 15 days guarantee per month, 7 on 7 off, schedule set, predicted, for the next 3-4 years if you want, you'll make min. guarantee $65K Year 1 and get around $100K with FDP and overtime. So, not even close, especially PSA where you guys are struggling to fly 75 hrs/month.

Anyway, I am getting off track. My point was yes, NJA is not at all like the majors/legacy but when people say it's so much better at the major, I am supposing that they are comparing with the majors/legacy, not the regionals. So, we agree :D

This from a guy who doesn’t even know the origins of the word Brauh but uses it often.

You just have to justify your move to 121 anyway you can.

Don’t worry Bruh (Hawaiian). We’ll be fine here.

Enjoy your red eye.

By the way, there very much are numerous comparisons of NetJets to 121... and the career categories 121 held a strong winning margin over NetJets have closed considerably over the last 15 years.

In another 15, I’m sure you’ll still claim a larger margin for some peripheral reason... and that’s fine.

Bruh.

Still hung up on my speech huh? That’s alright I could really care less as I use the word putz sometimes and I’m not German.

We don’t do red eyes, though according to my spreadsheet I did 42 in 12 years that departed between 2300L-0300L at NJA. So odds are you do them more than me but eh, easy to get direct brah.

ua hopu iā ʻoe ma mua o 250, Baghdad Bob!

Here on APC we use the "industry standard" definition of "Major", which is based on business model, and type of aircraft flown, vice revenue.

Nobody expect gubmint bean counters use the gubmint definition.

he pā liʻiliʻi kona huahana bruh. i oi haahaa oukou. maikaʻi mākou iā ʻoe. e kāne

How’s Hawaiian Airlines?

Beats me brah, I assume Hawaiian is doing well considering their NEOs are all over the West coast.

How’s Turkish Airlines?

I’ve never been to a Turkish Prison.

And I think you know how Hawaiian is doing.

Brah.

“This is the slang term for "bro" which is slang for brother..a slang inside a slang 8) THIS ORIGINATED IN THE STATE OF HAWAII! for those who think that it originated in southern california or where ever, your are miss informed. It is the pigeon (english-hawaiian slang) word that is used state wide in Hawaii not only by surfers but by all people born and raised in hawaii of all racial groups. and it pains me when i hear cali haole tourist say it.”

They’ll know you’re a Haole unless you know the islands history.

I didn’t know you were a diachronic linguist. Actually a really cool hobby, I’m glad you found a hobby. The history of words and phrases is quite satisfying. I have heard. Not for me brah, but I’m glad you found something.

Take care brah!

Well said. NJA pilots that have been there a long time, have no clue what the current state of the regional airline industry is in terms of pay and benefits. Most of them think regionals are flying Metroliners starting at 21k a year and PFT.

What I will add, is that maybe the comparison of NJA versus is regionals is only really unfair as regionals are not designed to be career jobs. But what I would say, is that I would venture to say that the vast majority of NJA pilots didn't envision a career at NJA until they were forced to. I wonder what the amount of new hires now going to NJA are that have zero desire to ever leave...

The attrition rate of pilots with less than 5 years is just a shade under 35 percent. That’s your answer I think.

Those are just the ones that get hired too, I bet the percentage of those who want to leave is higher when you include those who aren't getting calls.

We have a some FO here at Spirit that left Netjets and are now commuters. The most common answer that I get when I asked them why the left, was the upgrade time.

Totally fair.

I left Nja for nk and am very glad I did. Even commuting to reserve was a quality of life improvement. Makes me wish I’d left long before.


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First, not that it should be a deciding factor but it’s closer to a 5.5 year flow.

Second, I never said you can’t make significantly more at NJA than a regional. My argument was that the guys that make significantly more are flying their butt off which is what you kinda hinted at. I’ve read these threads. A few guys on here have said a little more than half of the NJA pilots fly the 7/7 schedule. Compared to that.... PSA is only slightly less in pay. Republic and Endeavor are pretty much on par while having more days off of your choosing. It’s more of an apples/oranges comparison but I would also argue the Republic and Endeavor pilots are making more over a 5-7 year time span since half of that time is on captain pay. Of course NJA captain pay is quite a bit more but who cares if you’re looking to move on in 5 years. Just like I don’t care about Legacy wide body pay. I’ll likely retire before my seniority can hold it.

Like I also said, career wise NJA is a no brainer. If you’re looking at 5-7 years or less present day regionals give NJA a run for their money especially if you want more schedule flexibility. And the pay will continue to go up for another few years.

Edit* actually looks like 5 year captain pay at NJA is about 20k less than what the Republic and Endeavor guys are making at 5 years unless you want pick up extra flying.

I know a few FOs who left for Spirit months before upgrade here.

That’s a bold move.

To be on reserve with a commute as a new hire at Spirit only to upgrade at Spirit years later and be on reserve again post upgrade.

The remaining pre 2015 FOs at NetJets will be upgraded in 3 years or less at the current rate of upgrades... less when AQP kicks in if management decides to reassign excess sim time set aside for recurrent training to upgrades.

When upgrade becomes 6-7 years then for a 2015 NJA hire, what will the argument be then concerning stagnancy as a reason to leave NetJets.

It’s coming.

I'd be curious how many that are leaving are retired 121 who are finally done with the career vs younger guys who are moving on to something else.

That information I do not have.

I would argue many reasons.

One is QOL is subjective but is so much better when one feels they have control over when and where they work. You need to be at football game to coach the kids at at 1800 you can arrange that at a 121 scheduled carrier, no such luck at NJA.

Two, the pay as a senior FO at NK is, talking to the FOs that jumpseat with us, above that of 7/7 pay at NJA for a captain for same amount of days.

Three, Retirement income is a 100 times better at all majors than at NJA. That’s figuratively not literally please...

Four, planning your career progression is easier at a 121 carrier as you know at age 65/67 they punch out while at NJA you got gunners approaching 85 still chugging along.

Lastly, off topic but on the major forums you rarely run into cheerleaders for the company that try to blow sunshine up your butt. It’s honest discussion about the good and the bad about a company. Once again it’s an honest discussion and no lies.

Take care brah!