Legacy Airline vs Fractional
 

Ok boys and girls, I’m hoping to keep this educational and professional. Take the ****-slingin elsewhere.

Having said that, I’m at a legacy airline and senior enough to bid CA with 20 years to go. I’m interested in at least researching a fractional career as this “bus driver” lifestyle is not what it once was. Especially as a commuter with planted roots and no desire to move to a hub at this point. I’ve never been one to choose money over QOL either.

Anyone been on both sides of the fence and care to educate me? I’m interested in QOL, pay, benefits, and overall job satisfaction differences.

Thanks! 🍻

Pay and QOL at fracs are certainly reasonable, ie better than most white-collar grinds, but most objective observers would say that long term pay and QOL will be better at a legacy. You can make decent money at a frac if you hustle apparently.

With a frac you won't have to sweat the commute. But you still have to *do* the commute.

Does seven-on work for you? 12 hours/day hot reserve in an FBO? If my legacy needs me to hang out for a while outside of my domicile, they get me a hotel.

OK flying with some interesting characters? True at majors too, some more than others but generally not as bad. At least the airlines kick them to the curb at age 65. I had two buds who did fracs for a while and they complained about that.

Also consider upgrade time... it's pretty darn low at most legacies right now.

Also consider who you'll fly with after you do upgrade. Junior CA's are leaving lower-tier majors to go to the big-three right now... what kind of FO's will general aviation be able to attract in a couple years? The majors will be hiring CFI's soon if they're not already. That was a big part of why left my regional a few years ago, and it turns out that I beat the rush.

^^ the post above
Legacy is a better bet than most fractional. Due to pay and benefits. Yes stress will be less with not worrying about commuting. But if you are flexible and do not care about your schedule changing constantly, being gone for 7 days at a time, loading bags, helping the customers with drinks/transportation. It’s hard work but some people love it, some hate it.

If you are going to make the move, only do Netjets, unless you have a gravy 91 gig lined up. They have good pay, and amazing benefits. However you won’t upgrade for about 7-10 years. IMO staying at the legacy might be a better choice, but I have no idea what your QOL or commute is like either! Goodluck

11 years at a frac and 5 years at a major so far. Frac flying is fun, interesting, challenging and there’s almost always someplace new every trip. Flying the plane is the fun part and maybe 1/3 of the job. You might very well find yourself stooped over picking up, wiping up, vacuuming up and restocking the cabin of a Phenom in short order, and you’ll almost assuredly upgrade into one.

You can do pretty well financially as a careerist. Especially if you eventually find your way into the large cabin planes. The hotel and airline points are nice benefits.

Having said that, it’s hard work most of the time with long duty days, a lot of time in FBO crew lounges at all hours and generally being the CSR you don’t have to be at a major. The long Jackson Hole or Nantucket overnights are the exceptions rather than the rules. I made as much in my second year at a major as a 10 year Captain with check pilot stipend at frac.

If that sounds like it suits you then have at it. Some people really love it. There are very few people leaving the majors to start over at the fracs without extenuating circumstances. There is quite a bit of traffic in the other direction.

I have a question regarding this topic. I'm currently an FO at a regional and considering making jump to the Fractional world. I feel like it would be a nice bump in pay & QOL. Additionally, I've always felt like I should go somewhere where I'd be okay "getting stuck", so I'd be okay potentially making a career there. With that being said, I pretty much have two questions:

1. I've heard it's hard to go from a Fractional to the Legacies but maybe that's changing with how the current hiring market is. Do you think it's realistic that I could go to a Fractional and then make a decision to either stay or try to make a jump to a legacy from there?

2. When it comes down to it, I'd rather be at one that is more stable long term and can ride out the economic waves a little bit better. During Covid it seemed like the Fractional world recovered a lot faster than the airlines and so I guess my question is typically during down turns in the market, do you see the airlines or fractionals being more secure?

Any advice is appreciated, just curious to learn more from those that have a little more experience in those areas.

Your best competitive bet for legacies is turbine PIC... that could take a while at fracs. It's possible with SIC, but they probably don't count frac SIC any different than regional SIC.

Fracs did better in covid due to wealthy people trying to avoid the unclean masses on airlines, and also avoid lockdown restrictions. Not sure that translates to a garden-variety recession, but somebody on here must remember how fracs did in 2008?

Also, legacy seniority progression is insane right now... grab a number and in a couple-three years you'll be above the conventional furlough high-water mark. At that point, odds are that the worst that can happen is you end up UNA not working for a while, but still getting paid guarantee for the smallest plane on property. First world problem.

I did 13 years at USAirways mainline, 2yrs at a regional and then 12yrs at NetJets before losing my medical at age 60 in 2017.
I liked the Fractional Flying so much that when USAirways called me back from furlough in 2007 I opted to take early retirement since I had just turned 50. It's not the place to go if you want to build time for a major airline slot. Regionals are much better for that.

Advantages of Fractionals, especially NetJets:

-Flying is a lot more varied than at the airlines. I've had to dig rocks out of a ditch to use for wheel chocks when we did an overnight at an unattended field. We had to ride the community center handicap van at Marfa, TX because there was no other ground trans available to our hotel 27 miles away in Alpine, TX. We broke at the old Roosevelt Roads Naval Station in PR just before New Year's. We got stuck in a Ritz-Carlton Resort ($700/night) for 3 nights including New Years :D. Even after 12 years it was rare to not see a new airport during a tour. You will see a LOT of uncontrolled airports.

-You'll meet some interesting people, Governor's, Senators, Representatives, etc and lots of well known actors and sports figures.

-NO COMMUTING (unless you live in the boondocks)

-Pay at NetJets is not that far from what you'll make at a legacy airline. You won't see B777 Intl PIC wages but when I lost my medical in 2017 I was easily making $200K as a Phenom PIC and that was before Flight Duty Pay started. My guess is I'd be doing in the high 200's if I was there now working the 72 day schedule.

-Enough Hotel points and airline miles to do a vacation to Hawaii once a year. My wife and I flew 1st class CLT-LAX-HNL and back again and stayed at hotels using nothing but points. All we paid for was the rental car and of course food and tourist stuff.

-With the 7 on 7 off schedule you know when you'll be working many months in advance which is nice for planning family activities.

-less exposed to furloughs, especially with Berkshire Hathaway backing NetJets. 2008 was a very rare event, share owners had to use their jets as ATM's and it really hurt. Now they've fixed that. Normal recessions should not result in furloughs.

Disadvantages-

-A lot less control over your schedule than you'll have at an airline, especially if you're senior at the airline.

-shorter overnights. Fly for NetJets, see the world thru your hotel room window. More than 12 hours is rare unless you're broke somewhere with no available transportation out.

-you work harder, cleaning, stocking, loading bags, etc. At larger airports you'll have help and there are service centers where NetJet's people will do a lot for you.

-upgrading to PIC. It's not as bad as some posted, remember there was no hiring from 2008-2015 and I think they're about to starting upgrading the 2015 hires before too long.


I probably forgot a few things but I think I got the big points.

Like everything else in life there are pros and cons. If you want to make as much money as possible, 121 is the way to go. If you're tired of the commute and have no intention of moving to a major hub, flying for a frac would eliminate that problem. The health insurance at NetJets is arguably the best you'll find in the industry, including the big 3 legacies. Premiums 100% covered and zero deductible.

I've done both and decided to commit to the fractional side. No more 3 hour sit in a 737 jumseat to EWR the night before my trip, and the flying is just more interesting.

That's my take. To each their own.

You are going to work less for the same money at a major vs a frac.

While the 401k at NetJets is pretty good, it still can’t touch a 16% direct contribution above your hourly wages.

Health insurance is likely way better at NetJets, specifically.

Qol is pretty subjective. If you ever think you would want a certain day of a week off consistently, then stay at the legacy. You simply can’t guarantee that you will consistently get a certain day off every week at NetJets. One offs are easy, but if you want every Thursday off for a kids game or weekends, it would be close to impossible. No matter how long you’ve been there.

Also, imo, the no commuting benefit is way over blown. I’m home way more now as a commuter than I was at a frac. Again, I can bid late starts, so I can have breakfast with my kids before commuting. At a frac, you are most likely up early to get into position every time. I will acknowledge that my commute is fairly easy, and yours may not be.

I have been in both - 121, 135 and now in Frac . .. Frac is much more like an airline in that you have dispatchers and lots of support... most 135's is more, "here's the trip - go make it happen". I did a video a few years back showing a typical 10-day trip at our 135. Might help shed a light on things.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=T1hPVhNumik

I appreciate all the information and advice. I'd basically be looking at either FlexJet or NetJets if I were to make the switch.

Does it tend to be slower moving up in seniority at these Fracs since there isn't the 65 rule?

Initially? No. High turnover in the junior ranks. After that it’s a long slog.

Things are changing fast at the fracs. Even the massive stagnation at NJA is quickly becoming a thing of the past. All the fracs are expanding and upgrades will be light years sooner for a new hire than those hired before. The money is finally showing up for the fracs to make close to 121, but you will earn it. Unless you get into the long range fleets where scheduling can't mess with you as much and your average overnights will be many hours longer than the other fleets, QOL on the road will ALWAYS suck at least a little bit.

Seniority doesn't improve your day to day flying, just what schedule and vacations you get. I am an SIC in the long range fleets by choice over PIC in the smaller fleets. I am trading tens of thousands of dollars each year because I value QOL and would probably leave to start over at a major rather than take un upgrade in what I can hold if I had to make a choice. That said, I'm pretty happy at the top of the SIC payscales in the long range equipment. I don't need a bigger airplane to feel cool, but I do need a better QOL on the road than what most of the fleets offer.

Unless your commute is a freaking nightmare, you will be trading at least the possibility of great QOL with seniority and much better company retirement contributions (allowing you to stop the rat race quicker) for a little over 100 bases where the company pays for your commute on their time and dime. If the free ride commute is worth it, NetJets is a pretty good job, but not as good as even the lower tiers of the majors until you can hold PIC on the long range stuff (currently 20 years or so).

Loved your videos, I wish you would keep churning them out more frequently!

LOL thanks . . . yeah it was a lot of work, then the company let us all go . . . I went to the airlines, now back to private - so there may be some more coming.

Thanks fellas! Tons of good info. Certainly something to think about. I keep seeing the frac pay going up and here we’re sitting with a very adversarial relationship with management and a contract that expired 3 years ago. Cost of living and inflation keep chipping away at the pay and our benefits are not very good. But it’s hard to justify the loss of almost 5 years of seniority and a pretty sweet seniority outlook for the unknown. First world problems I guess.

🍻

Yes... interesting, useful, informative youtubing.

People not at a legacy have no idea how much QOL has degraded. It’s unfortunate.

Knowing what I know now, I should have taken a furlough instead and gone to NJA in 2002.

For perspective:
A320 CA
60% in seat at junior base
inserted around Nov. 2000 on the seniority list after a merger

TC

I fully believe the regular lines aren't what they used to be, but you do probably have options that would increase the QOL at a $$$$ cost. Things like dropping trips (not always an option) or taking a widebody SIC spot or depending on the airline, bidding reserve with the intention of not doing a lot of flying. I know a few guys at United that could easily hold captain in narrow body, but take the QOL on the 77 and 78. I have a couple of others that stay senior SIC on the 73 for better lines and no commute. I personally do the equivalent at the fracs. I most definitely want the PIC pay, but the job that comes with it sucks for QOL at the fracs, even with great seniority in the non long range fleets. Hopefully the majors will get some better QOL in their lines and hopefully the 135 rewrite will pass and force better QOL for business jets.

I left NJA about 3-4 years ago.

If I went to a major/legacy that only offered domestic/short haul flying I probably would be disappointed and maybe even regretted my decision.

Domestic schedules at big airlines are not that impressive, and not that much different than NJA considering all the delays, big airports, short overnights, etc.

Commuting isn’t fun, and neither is FAR 121 health insurance. FAs can often be a troublesome burden, wiping down a Phenom tray table won’t write me up…but a FA that has become the mask police? Heck, I’d rather restock.

NJA is stressful, the days are long. I was not happy, and the pilot group traded QOL for near legacy pay rates. There are characters everywhere, but sitting next to a character for 7 days straight, 11-14 hours per day…yeah, I couldn’t get paid enough.

NJA is a great job with lots of unique benefits, but it is stressful…long days…little if any QOL on the road.

The long, happy, enjoyable overnights are surprises that seldom occur.

There is much more freedom at the airlines, but some pilots don’t do well with freedom. Commuting? It is stressful and rough, but so is a NJA 7-day tour.

Are you closer to understanding the differences? Where do you live and commute? What are your life goals?

There is no right or wrong, yes or no answer. All we have is time, all of these jobs pay enough. The question, the only question, is how do you want to spend the remaining time you have on planet Earth?

Rawhide,

I’m ex LHS widebody majors (albeit overseas ones) with 18 yr to go. Came to a fractional last year. Absolutely love it, absolutely no desire to fly Pt. 121 here, though as others have pointed out there’s no right/wrong & it’s really a personal decision.

All the best with your decision.

I heard the horror stories but have yet to spend a tour with someone I couldn't tolerate. Of course the differing political opinions will come out at some point, but most people respect each others view points. I did fly with an older gentleman who was a bit of a grump but he has since retired and was actually a nice guy once he took his tie off.

It's the constant negativity that wears me down. I'll go out on a limb and say that its more prevalent in the 121 world. Most of the guys that I've flown with here at NetJets have a positive attitude, but private or commercial, pilots by nature will find something to complain about.

ACMI/91K/121, about 8 years each. How much you love your job is 75% you, 20% your colleagues, 5% your company. If you are unhappy flipping burgers while in college you have the potential to be unhappy as a DL A350 PIC doing a GSWC on a weekday in September.

https://www.americancraftbeer.com/be...ewing-sky-hag/

“She hates you and her job. But, she gets to go to Paris twice a month. This beer's as bitter as she is.”

Real nice video. I enjoyed it quite a bit. You have a nice touch doing these and it shows your professionalism. You would be an asset to any company.

That's just replaced polygamyporter as my favorite beer name

Some of this may have been discussed already but here’s my two cents for what it’s worth. Also I want to state up front I hope I don’t come off as some arrogant spoiled rotten united pilot. That’s not my intent and trust me, I thank my lucky stars everyday I am where I am. Additionally, I accept its no more then pure luck that I am where I am in terms of seniority and how my career ended up the way it did. It easily could have turned out completely opposite. As you all know this industry is a total crap shoot.

That all being said. As a fairly senior 777 CA at a legacy my pay, quality of life both at home but just as importantly at work far exceeds that of any fractional (again my opinion). Most of this is due to a strong union and contract that has been constantly tweaked and amended and improved over decades. I also believe flying a widebody for a ME3 carrier or ACMI in no way compares to a US legacy. However, I would honestly say that flying for Fedex or UPS exceeds flying at United or the other legacies in terms of overall pay, retirement and quality of life.

I’ll try to keep my post fairly short.

We have many (widebody and narrow body) pilots who choose to chase the money. Many widebody CA’s earn over 500K (plus 16% company 401K contributions) I fly with some senior FO’s who earn north of 400K. This largely due to soft time, DH and contractual trip & duty riggs. That’s why many of the senior widebody FO’s bypass narrow body CA’s and even earn more then 757/767 CA’s and wait till their senior enough to jump the garbage bag and upgrade on a widebody as line holders (as they make more then reserve widebody CA’s).

If your looking for max time off on a widebody you can hold up to 18 to 20 days off in a non vacation month. In a vacation month up to 24 or more days off (again maximizing days off and not pay)

At UAL after 11 years you get 5 weeks of vacation and after 25 years 6 weeks of vacation. We can use vacation months to either increase days off or to maximize pay, a pilots individual choice. So for many of us we have a vacation month almost half the year.

Quality of life at work. Widebody mostly one leg a day. Half the time getting paid to sit in FC seat and watch movies or sleeping
in a bunk (dozing for dollars). Example on longer flights you can easily get a 6 to 7 hour break. So really the time your actually in the flight deck is like flying a transcon. Most layovers at 4 or 5 star downtown hotels. Average layover 24 to 36 hours some 72 hours or more. The long ones are good for soft time (earning money to sit and not fly) . Soft time keeps your FAR times down so you can earn extra money if you choose. DH at 100% pay in FC. Even shorter domestic layovers (mostly) get private town car or bus to hotel not airport hotel vans.

From what I’ve read on here and heard directly from friends who fly for fractionals. The only real advantage is the positive space tickets to and from your home. I live in base so that wouldn’t matter to me but most legacy pilots do commute so that is a definitely a huge advantage.

Thats really all I see as an advantage at a fractional. Fractional pilots work their tails off in all the non flying duties, plus multiple leg long duty days. Airline pilots are spoiled & spoon fed. We turn left when we get to work and work and turn right when we leave, no extra duties. When I hear of an average of 14 hour layovers and long duty days for 7 to 15 straight days at the fractionals, I honestly I get nauseous. Sure as a young kid building time no big deal. But after 20 plus years, no thank you that’s too much work and a very low quality of life at work in my opinion.

I get that widebody flying isn’t for everyone. Senior narrowbody flying at United, you can fly one leg transcons or very productive turns or even very productive Caribbean turns (especially if you live in base) and get lots of days off or pick up an earn extra money. I know pilots in my seniority range who make a lot more then I do picking up premium pay narrow body trips.

Anyway if you have 20 or more years in my opinion your selling yourself way to short if you go to a fractional vs a legacy.

Can’t believe I omitted the following in my previous post above. This obviously excludes Net Jets that not only has a union but a strong union and very good contract.

Having started my 35 year airline career at a non union carrier, later to a weak independent union and now to a strong national union but most importantly a strong local unit of the national union.

I couldn’t imagine working anywhere for 20 or 20 plus years at a non union company or even with a union but essentially a weak union.

Don’t look at any current management (senior and middle), pay, working conditions etc. at any fractional. Managements come and go, acquisitions & mergers happen. Everything about your very good or great fractional (again Net Jets excluded) today could be gone tomorrow, a few years from today or in 15 years. What if your told 10 years from now to move to XYZ or your job is gone?


If your at a company for 20 or more years all you have is your seniority. Forget about a seniority system vs a merit upgrade system. What about fired at will (except for discrimination) vs. having to have just cause (a much more difficult standard to meet at union carrier with a good contract). What about furloughs out of seniority or just being let go permanently, maybe out of seniority at a non union flying job. What about massive pay cuts and or significant degradations of quality of life at work and or home compared to todays fractionals?

The whole great fractional job today could turn 180 degrees opposite in a year or 15 years from now. That’s for too much period of a career with no legal, enforceable contractual protections. Way too many career unknowns to gamble with. I believe for someone with 20 or more years to go especially if already at a legacy today.

14 hour average overnights is not the case at the fractionals unless you are on the long range fleets. The current average is probably around 11 hours.

When you retire, would you please come to NetJets with a few of your peers that think like you and run for union leadership positions.

Wow that’s really bad. What’s the actual behind the door at the hotel 8 1/2 to 9 hours? A day or two on a long tour is one thing but day after day for 7 to 15 days, fatigue is cumulative. You can’t magically fall asleep when you close the hotel room door. You need to
unwind before you sleep and even after you wake up, and xcsrcise decompress etc. That’s got to take a severe toll
long term, especially for a 20 or more year career.

I’d much rather deal with circadian rhythm issues with long haul flying. Considering bunks on the plane and long layovers to catch up on sleep.

The reason I said 14 hours is that what I was told by a friend who is a new hire at XO (only been on line about 6 months) flying the Citation X. I was just speaking to a friend who flies for a bottom feeder 135 operator that pretends to act like a fractional with 8 on 6 off. He told me they average 10 hour overnights. This pilot is leaving for Republic..

Been there and done that. 20 years union work, organizing, strike prep
and a rep.

in all seriousness keep finding the best and brightest and ask them to step up. If they won’t step up find a way to get them to step up. Keep bringing in new blood. Educate the new hires, stay unified and keep fighting. If you have weak leadership, or in there positions to long and or are to comfortable then vote them out.

Even if your leadership isn’t perfect your still light years ahead of all the non union - fractionals. Sure there is a pilot shortage now and it appears so for the foreseeable future. Things change and black swan events happen. Two years ago how many pilot furloughs were projected.

Inflation, recession something catastrophic to the fractional market. Watch these nonunion fractionals change pay and working conditions overnight.

Agree with everything you wrote. Unfortunately, our leadership is entrenched and through election bylaws they pushed through about five years ago, insulated from an electoral challenge.

Wow I had no idea a senior widebody captain has good pay and QOL.

Yes, for the most part international long haul widebody flying is very productive. Pre covid mostly Asia, India or the Middle East on the 777 for UAL in EWR. Asia and Europe, Middle east in SFO. IAH mostly South America, Hawaii and Europe. DC - Europe, Middle East and some Asia. Mostly 28 to 32 hour four day trips, some 18 to 23 hour 3 day trips. Also some less productive domestic (hub to hub or Transcon) and Europe mixed in too. So it only takes about 10 - 12 days of flying in a non vacation month to fly a normal 75 to 85 hour month if your aiming for max days off if your getting mostly long haul trips. Obviously less days off if you choice to maximize pay.

Remember most widebody line holders have north of 11 years so they get 5 or 6 weeks of vacation per year. You can get awarded more then one week in a month but many like myself try to get a many months with one week of vacation. So you can turn that into more days off or more pay, individuals choice.

Obviously China is still shut down. But we are starting some Asia long haul out of EWR & SFO. An though Europe isn’t that productive (mostly 757/767) some of what we are doing now on the 777 is W flying. Example EWR - London - SFO - London - EWR. That’s more productive then traditional European flying. More Asia cities are possible if China stays locked down.

I was somewhat skeptical before trying long haul, as to how difficult it would be for me. In actuality I’m far less fatigued flying long haul Asia & India then I was flying traditional 3 day Europe on the 757/767 for many years.

Again it’s not for everyone. But most get addicted to the flying and the choice of quality of life at home and work and or the ability to make extra pay. I’ve done all types of flying, narrow body domestic, 767 Europe and now long haul 777. By far the 777 is the absolute best flying of my 35 year airline career.

I guess you missed my sarcasm. But thank you for the preceeding five paragraph explanation.

Yup sarcasm totally missed, my bad! But hey maybe its helpful for others that is what this thread is about no? If not that’s 15 minutes I’ll never get back.

I am in a junior fleet and a junior captain at NJA. My overnight averages are tracked and currently showing 14 hrs. So I think JTFs number was a bit off the mark. The important thing to remember is that is the average. Yup, there are times when you get min rest but I am usually at the hotel and lounging on the bed by the time I get my shutdown message so it’s easy to get at least 8 hrs sleep even on those min turns.

The problem with all you are saying is that you need 20+ years to reach that point.