topgun53590

As far as net jets go you are correct they did have teamsters to start then they got smart and FIRED them because they did know what they were doing. So again I ask name one.
I have worked for a few companies that have had union repesention not a single one had anything in the contract about writing up an airplane. Just how does one even go about trying to get that in the contract?
Also I don't know who else you have worked for, nore do I care, but for the most part, everytime I have ever had a wright up i had to call it in, to get the maintance side and see if they have any suggestion. I guess in your words one should just not even call the company. God forbid you made a mastake and didn't do thing A right to make thing B work, because you over looked it. But I guess that you are the most perfect pilot out there that has never made a mistake. congrats you are the first.
So why did you call in the problem in the first place, is it because your captin didn't want to, or because your perfect and right all the time. Again all of he places that I have worked the captin calls in to talk to maintance. He/She is supposed to know the plane better than the FO. Not saying that is always the case but for the most part that is true. So with that being said is your info first hand (straight out of the mouth of maintance/company) or is it second hand info (this is what my captin told me that they said). Big difference as you should know, you like to twist everyone elses words.
PS I'm still waiting by the way.

BeenThereDoneIt

Topgun, you seem more focused on attacking me that discussing unionization. Thus, this will be my last post to you. I spent 4 years working on jets in the military. I worked for Pratt & Whitney and a few other aircraft companies after the military. I'd say that I know more about maintenance than all the "captains" that I flew with....COMBINED.

Your union question is stupid.....you want me to name a Frac that has a good contract, but wont allow the use of NetJets. Brilliant! Bye, bye.

topgun53590

So i guess my point is proven, why get a crappy contract just to get a contract. You think that by getting a union all of the problems go away but that's not really the case is it. Maybe unions really don't work for the fracs if they did then everyone would have one.

PopWash

Flexjet and CA only pay what they do because of Netjets, and netjets only has the pay/benefits they do cause of the union, which was teamsters at the time. If it was not for the union at netjets, none of the fracs would be paying anywhere close to what they do now. Netjets was the first to hike their pay, and the rest followed to remain competitive. simple as that

DWS1

Absolutely true. The only way Unions will not succeed on this side of the industry is if the majority roll over on work rules and allow their Companies to create a race to the bottom for everyone. It was a victory for all to have NJASAP plow the road for the other groups. It's time now for others to move to the front. If you think your Company cannot afford it than you've already lost. The only way they can't afford it is if all pilot groups do not stand up. You drive the revenue; You fill the shoes of several positions; You see to the success of your operation on a level that airlines and cargo do not, even though they are compensated on a grander scale.

To those still sitting idle regarding forming an organized labor group: Stand up, do what's right and demand the profession you deserve. NJASAP has resources set aside to help other groups raise the bar for us all.

topgun53590

Wow great speech lets just look at what happened to Flops when they decided to get a union. They had over 1000 pilots and 250 planes, after 5 years of cancleing flights because they had to show the company they ment bussiness. They lost over 650 active pilots and about 120 planes. Good thing they followed in the footsteps of NJASAP.
You seem to think that what is good for one is great for all but I beg to differ, there was time and place for unions it's just to bad that the time has passed.
You see when you are in the bussiness of customer service and you start to cancle flights due to pilots downing planes at the last min. to make a point they leave. Its not like an airline where all you have to do is discount your fares and they all come running back and forget what happened, the last time they tried to fly on you.

BeenThereDoneIt

Topgun....please pass the Kool-Ad...if there is any left.

HaZMaT

In September 2004 I put together a spreadsheet to compare the fractionals. Using data I collected from APC on NJ, FJ and CS I added Avantair numbers I got the Chief Pilot to give me (not on APC at the time). I still have that spreadsheet. Below are some interesting comparisons of then and now:

NetJets
Pilots 9/04 – 2200 (I had conflicting data - one source showed 2200 pilots and another source I saved showed 2800. For this comparison I used the more conservative of the 2 numbers.)
Pilots 12/10 – 2322 Active 495 Furloughed (2804 total)
Planes 9/04 – 442
Planes 12/10 - 436

FlightOptions
Pilots 9/04 – 910
Pilots 12/10 - 318 Active 216 Furloughed (534 total)
Planes 9/04 – 209
Planes 12/10 - 127

FlexJet
Pilots 9/04 – 450
Pilots 12/10 – 375 Active 85 Furloughed (460 Total)
Planes 9/04 – 104
Planes 12/10 - 84

CitationAir
Pilots 9/04 – 260
Pilots 12/10 – 330 Active 69 Furloughed (399 Total)
Planes 9/04 – 67
Planes 12/10 - 84

Avantair
Pilots 9/04 – 70
Pilots 12/10 – 234 Active No Furloughs (234 Total)
Planes 9/04 – 20
Planes 12/10 - 56

September 2004 was pre NetJets '05 contract and prior to Flight Options vote to unionize. I know guys at all four fractionals. Many came to fractional after me. Several are furloughed through no fault of their own. It looks to me like furloughs can happen at union and non union shops.

NetJets may have grown after adding a union during the boom market, but has since shrunk to near 2004 numbers.

Flight Options has shrunk by more than half its pilots and 82 aircraft.

Flex Jet had a little growth and had to pull back to pre 2004 numbers.

CitationShares/CitationAir grew by 27 planes with 70 more active pilots than in 04 but they too had to pull back pilots and planes after exceeding their market share.

Avantair... 164 more pilots 36 more planes - No pull backs, continued growth with measured slowing.

BeenThereDoneIt

HazMat, thanks for the info. I was wondering if you could post the current payscales for those same Fracs.

USMCFLYR

BTDI -

You can view them here.

http://www.airlinepilotcentral.com/a...ractional.html

USMCFLYR