Next steps...
 

The information presented is my own opinion and does not reflect the opinion of all pilots or our union.

First, the actions taken by the company is textbook negotiation strategy. Each and every day that they can operate with a bankruptcy contract is money in the bank. They will never concede to a contract that will benefit the pilot group until all their financial concerns are alleviated.

That being said, I have serious concerns over the capability of this NC. History has shown that the strategy used by our NC, including Bruce York, Chief Negotiator is that they hoped to achieve an impasse. One doesn't have to look too deeply into any past Negotiator's Newsletter to see that this team wanted to play nice to establish an impasse and start the clock for a cooling off period. Their strategy was a viable one early on but, it is no longer effective. The strategy must change. It must become more aggressive but I am not confident that this is going to occur. My reasoning is the most recent letter from our NC that has openly admitted that obtaining a contract in 2018 is not reality. I agree. Rumors have floated that both the MEC and NC are not actively listening to the pilots. In fact, these rumors go so far as to complain that the MEC and NC are acting on their own accord. So, what's the answer?

First, the pilot group must unify. Unity to the level of no longer be willing to make up for operational failures, unity to fly the contract, unity to utilize the approved methods, i.e. ACARS when talking to SOC, Dispatch, etc. We all fly the line. We all recognize the failures. The operation continues to operate on the finest of thin lines and quite honestly, we do not have to do anything to make it worse. Rather, a cohesive pilot group that flies the contract, ensures the safety of our passengers may be all that is required.

Our pilots continually go above an beyond their job description because that is the right thing to do. If our employer did the right thing, we wouldn't need to do anything but our jobs. We wouldn't be in this situation. We all know that the aircraft logbooks are in disarray. MEL's are listed and not active, MEL's are missing and more concerning, MEL's listed can be incorrect. If an incorrect MEL is used, the aircraft is no longer in airworthy status and your certificates are now at risk. Not to be dramatic but, an inaccurate MEL could allow a crew to operate an aircraft that unbeknownst to them is technically unsafe. No crew member would ever take an aircraft that they believed to be unsafe but it may be occurring and the crew would never know it because of the current shortcomings of our operation.

This pilot group needs to understand that until every pilot agrees that enough is enough that NOTHING is going to change. Conversations with fellow pilots at other airlines often ask me, "what the hell is going on over there?" Other pilot groups recognize the problems here at F9 and our pilots' group failure to respond, why can't we recognize it ourselves? Other pilot groups support us currently but we are quickly becoming the pilot group that fails to help themselves. Eventually, no matter how much support you provide to a person or group, when that person fails to take the necessary steps to improve the situation it becomes very hard to continue to provide that support. We find ourselves in this position currently.

The issues of open time, incentivized trips, etc. are of little significance on the operation. While I don't personally pick up open time, separating the group on any level through the use of lists, harassing phone calls, etc accomplishes nothing. If you disagree with someone's decision to pick up open time address it with them directly and control what you can control.

While I don't think this pilot group has the gumption to actually stand up and while my confidence in this NC is waning, eating our own is not the answer. Direct that frustration to where it belongs--BB and the pure greed that drives him. Don't forget, you are a number in his balance sheet, profit and loss statement and bonus check. Nothing more. Your opinion doesn't matter to him. He doesn't even like you or care about your family.

In closing, this post was not designed to separate our pilots. Our frustration should be voiced to our local reps, MEC and NC. It is their job to represent us and negotiate a contract that we all agree on. Personally, I think they are not meeting this objective.

First post and your upset with the union. Did you write this union busting post on the golf course, DimpleBalls?

Excellent post.

The question should be...... are you involved? Do you volunteer? How often do you speak with your Rep?

I’m sorry but I don’t understand the point of your post. After walking onto the flight deck I go through the logbook with a fine tooth comb, then I hand the book over to the FO to review in case I missed something. If for some reason the a/c is unairworthy the airplane doesn’t move until our concerns are addressed. This same procedure has occurred on every flight I’ve flown for F9 as both a first officer or captain.

As for the NC, they (and we) are stuck between a rock and a hard place. The system under the RLA only works if both parties negotiate in good faith. If either party fails to satisfy their responsibilities it is up to the NMB to apply pressure on said party up to and including permitting a lockout or strike. The current NMB as constituted has abdicated that responsibility.

We began this journey before the conclusion of the 2016 election. Bruce York, the NC, and all the other parties involved on our behalf decided to follow the spirit of the RLA and engage in a good faith effort to conclude an agreement in a timely manner. That effort failed. The next step was to impress upon the NMB that an impasse in bargaining had occurred and per the purview of the RLA a release to self help should be authorized. The current NMB members, who were appointed following the surprise result of the 2016 election don’t believe we should have the opportunity to exercise our right to self help for purely political reasons. Without the threat of a walkout the company has no reason to bargain in good faith, the system fails, and they keep pocketing millions of extra dollars each day.

Do I agree with everything the NC has done, of course not, but hindsight is always 20/20. You can call our good faith efforts naive, we played by the rules and lost. But if you are trying to find someone to blame look no further than Indigo and the NMB, they are the ones who didn’t respect the process.

Correct me if I’m wrong, but isn’t everything we’ve TA’d so far below industry standard?

Yes, lowest in the industry so far. Except for 100% DH pay that was TA'd 2 years ago.

Like I said, I don’t agree with everything they’ve done. It’s on us to vote a TA down if it’s anything less than industry standard across the board.

I agree with this.

THE PROCESS ONLY WORKS IF THE NMB ALLOWS FOR SELF-HELP! That's it. That is all. Without that possibility, the company is under no obligation to do anything in our favor (outside of the lack of ability to expand). If no other pilot joined F9 from today until whenever, why would Indigo change anything? The aircraft orders could go elsewhere. The current route structure we fly would continue and be continually scaled back as needed (due to attrition). They could essentially keep F9 the exact same until the last pilot retired or left then close the doors. With every person that leaves, it actually makes their job easier w/ less manpower to have to deal with and/or pay their share of insurance, disability, etc. Hell, there's not even something that prevents them from starting a new airline w/ a slightly better contract (it just has to be better than most regionals).

The point of this thread is appropo. However, there really is no such thing as ultimate pilot unity. You can probably get somewhere between 70-90% of the pilot group to act in accordance w/ all the actions proposed but there will never be 100% participation. History has proven this via multiple other airline negotiations. I happen to think the F9 pilot group is pretty close to terminal unity from those who are going to contribute. And from what I've seen (which is limited), people are already checking and double checking Mx logs, MELs, manifests, etc. We're all already doing the job as per our guidance in Vol 1 and 2 and will continue to.

So, while the frustration of this thread is certainly understandable, until we get a favorable NMB stance/decision (or leave), things will stay exactly the same. Complaining about the MEC or NC is displaced.

Mugatu,

I guarantee that I am more involved than you will ever be. The point of view is coming from that perspective. It is my first post because I have been heavily involved and see what is happening. I cannot simply sit back and watch what I know is occurring to occur. How many Union meeetings have you been to?

You are entitled to your opinion but in this case, it is an uninformed one.

That was ReserveCA who was asking the question.

But I will ask, if you feel the union has failed you, what do you propose? What would you do different from this point out?

I will never say that I hold all the answers to solve the issues but, it is obvious to me and many others that not enough is being done.

First, communicate better with the pilot group whether that be rallies, meetings or more pub events. They are actively holding these events but the message needs to be more clear. The rhetoric that is provided is nothing shy of pathetic. Canned responses that fail to accurately represent the current “asks” and what it ultimately means for our future. Pay close attention during these events. You will operate under the next contract for 8 years, not the 5 years being mentioned by our NC. They claim that the early openers on the following contract will in effect, make this a 3-3.5 year contract. That is not reality. We had early openers on the contract that we are negotiating now and we have been working on this for the better part of 2.5 years.

It is my opinion that ALPA National is now applying a great deal of pressure to get a TA in front of our pilots. They just want this done because of the vast amount of resources that our negotiations are consuming. The pressure that is being applied ultimately shorts F9 pilots on some very important issues. Obviously, pay being the focus. If the pay rate gets into the ballpark of other 121 carriers, it will be enough to pass a contract. I say no, it is not enough. Pay is important but other areas are just as important. Areas such as health care, retirement and long term disability, et al are important too. When these areas of the contract are discussed at union meetings and pub events the answer from union reps will, without question put F9 last or second to last in all these categories compared to our peers. This is not “Bringing Frontier Pilots into the pattern”

Contracts take time. The NMB is never going to release this pilot group and if we want an industry contract, every pilot needs to fight for it. That fight begins with every pilot expressing their concerns to the MEC, NC, LEC.

Look at my previous post. I am not stating that I have lost confidence in my NC, rather my confidence is diminishing as this negotiation goes on and on. The NC understand the importance of getting a contract completed and I simply feel that key areas will be sacrificed vs. getting it right. If an industry standard contract takes an extra year that would be better than operating under a substandard one.

I mostly agree, lthough I think they’re communicating fine. There’s nothing new to report right now. Otherwise I agree.

If they are feeling pressure to get it done (and I expect the NMB to also ratchet up the pressure on the NC in a couple weeks as well) and they cave to it, we’ve always got our NO vote. It will be up to those who are vehemently opposed to it to educate those who see a 30-40% raise and drool over it. I’m starting to think that no matter how long this drags out the first thing we see for a vote will be mediocre.

The administration we negotiate in is simply in the company’s favor. Nothing we can do about it except file a lawsuit, which ALPA did. I’ve been to a couple PUB events and I’m happy with the communication. What else can they say right now except repeating themselves?

As far as what’s been TA’d and being behind industry standard, well, that’s up to us to decide when we vote. Nobody will get everything they want. I will vote on the entire package.

I have no problem with ALPA’s strategy.

I'm always concerned when we talk of voting down a bogus TA like it's easy to do.

True, it's a legitimate card to play if necessary, but it's kind of like the "last" card to play, and there is danger in that.

Road shows are 100% pro-TA campaigns with big resources behind them, funded by all of us (even those who hate the TA will pay for it's promotion) There is never anything close to a funded and organized counter campaign to a TA. It will only consist of talks in the cockpit and APC postings. Road shows will have designated meetings, power point presentations, vocal union officials, and everything will be spun to sound amazing.

If the NC lets a TA out of the box before it's fair and honest and what we deserve, we have already lost.

Of course if it sucks bad enough we will vote it down, but the threshold for accepting or being buffaloed into accepting crap increases precipitously once something exists to vote on.

I wan't a TA worth having that won't just pass by narrowest of margin.

I vehemently disagree with this post. Communication from the MEC is excellent (when they have something to communicate.) This rhetoric you speak of, is truthful information from them. You may not like it, but to say it's rhetoric is pure stupidity. You're not aware with the current "ask" you say?? Pay attention and read the comms you've apparently missed. They've made this stuff easy to reference. Your own lack of knowledge on how to retrieve said information is not the fault of the MEC. Again, if you were paying attention, you'd also know that there is no final proposal regarding duration. The NC at the last pub event made it quite clear in the latest proposal that duration was TBD, and they also clearly stated that in the updated proposal communication.

I don't believe the NC or MEC will cave to anything. ALPA national doesn't decide jack squat, this pilot group does. You think the MEC and NC would allow themselves to be coerced by "ALPA" as you say to put out a $hit TA that gets voted down which requires more attention and more time and more money from ALPA to then get the second attempt ratified?? Your logic is just purely illogical. Everybody just wants the done, but that does not mean that any TA put out there will pass. Only the right deal will pass. ALPA, the MEC and the NC are keenly aware of this fact. No offense man, but the only thing pathetic around here was your post and your summation of where this process is going.

Let these guys do their jobs without being a freaking monday morning quarterback. You and I don't do their jobs and I'm smart enough to know that there's a lot that I don't know. You should consider adopting this mindset as well.

^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
This right here, guys and girls, is what it’s all about.

Whatever TA comes out of your negotiating committee, is very likely to pass a vote, no matter how horrible it is.

Why? Because when your NC agrees to the TA, historically speaking, your management negotiators will require your NC and MEC to sign a paper requiring them to fully endorse the TA. Basically they are going to be required to sell it to you.

You’ve been beaten up by management. You’ve been treated like crap. There are probably many among you now feeling like you just want the whole thing over with and you’d love a substantial raise and some QOL gains and move on. Many of you are right where they want you to be.

Hang in there. Communicate with your reps to make sure they don’t cave and try to put something in front of you. Once it’s in front of the membership, chances are, whatever it is, it’ll pass. It’s up to all of you to make sure your NC doesn’t TA anything that isn’t up to your expectations. Let them know how you feel by calling or emailing them. I can’t stress how important that is.

Once the TA is out of the bag, it’ll pass. Make sure it’s worthy of passing.

The TA is going to be garbage and it’s going to pass.

Who is trying to leave? Why would anyone stay? Other airlines with Denver bases have less than a year to get denver based. As a former F9 employee I am baffled why people choose to “wait it out”. The schedules suck, work rules suck, management hates you. Senior captains who think they are making hay smugly pick up open time for FO rates at other companies. State your excuses and then look at yourself in the mirror. Is this the company you dreamed about working for?

You are the BEST Monday morning quarterback I have seen! Easy for you to throw stones DB! Now that you do not work here why do you care who stays here or not? Go Troll on your current airlines forum. The way that you present yourself on F9's forum, you must have been a charm to fly with. All I can say is good riddance!

Whether they are here or not, they are still right.

That comment, on THAT post really makes no sense. Everything he is saying is correct. Company man? You must be a charm to fly with.

Then why are you still at F9?

I haven't received a phone call yet. Until I do I will try to make this a better place.

Perfect! I will do the same.



How many times a week do we need to be reminded that F9 sucks? We already know it does! Even when we do get a contract, this place will always suck with this management team.


I agree with ClearCreek here: "The schedules suck, work rules suck, management hates you. Senior captains who think they are making hay smugly pick up open time for FO rates at other companies. State your excuses".


Until we have a full TA in our hands to read(not snipets) I will wait to pass judgement. Our lanyards say, "Bringing Frontier Pilots Into The Pattern". What does that mean to you? Being the highest paid pilots, being the lowest paid pilots or being somewhere in the middle? Give the NC the chance to bring us into the pattern. Until then to listening to ClearCreek spew off saying, "The TA is going to be garbage and it’s going to pass", is bogus!

I'd say that question has already been answered judging by the items the NC has already TA'd with the company, and it's dead last.

If every section TA’d is below industry standard are they really doing their jobs?

Those things were TA'd when the goal was that playing nice to get released. That's off the table. Nothing is agreed upon until it passes a vote by us.

There you go! Exactly! Last time I checked, the NC consisted of Frontier pilots, one of which has quite the reputation for being rather militant and not in the business of doing the Company any favors. Like us, they too will have the pleasure of working under the contract they negotiated so I am fairly confident they don't prefer to sell themselves short either. On top of that, the NC works for the MEC. Nothing they agree to in negotiations was agreed to without considerable debate, discussion with the MEC who you all voted for. Not talking about the Chairman, Vice-Chairman or Sec/Treas. The decision makers are your CA and FO reps in the various domiciles who make up the voting members of the MEC.

That all being said, do you think any of those people truly want to bring a POS TA to the pilot group for a vote? Something that is so obviously flawed that it is destined to fail? And the failure would be considered a vote of no confidence against the MEC and NC whose members would likely be forced out or resign having put their support behind such a POS TA? HELL NO!

On the flip side, do you think the Company will ever agree to a deal that is so obviously favorable to the pilots that it is ratified 100%-0%? only a Pilidiot would expect that. The requirements of a favorable TA to Pilots is one with all the bells, whistles and dollars that would achieve a 100% ratification. The Company will be seeking a deal that falls in line with a 51%-49% approval rate amongst pilots, meaning they didn't over pay. The true fight for the union is to achieve a result that moves that 51% closer to 100% (75%-80% would be a win).

OVERALL ECONOMIC VALUE of the TA is what it should ultimately be judged by. No one will know what that all encompassing economic value is until there is a finished deal to review and roadshows explaining where the value lays.

All true.......however, the time line, I predict, is the distant future.....2020 or beyond :(

With all these planes coming on line this year and the next, pilots leaving F9 and not getting the numbers to fill classes, something is going to have to give sooner than later? So if it is the distant future, will F9 be able to run their airline with the short staffing levels that we have already?

CX all vac, offer new hire bonus, sell delivery slots......
Indigo isn't going to give up a nickel. ...

Add increase block to 85+
Days off no more than 12

CBA ......pthhhhhh..operational need

And....when sick calls go thru the roof add an attendance policy......

We r far from the bottom

Totally agree.

didn't the FAA say F9 can't take delivery of any new planes until the Mx program is fixed? what's going on with that?

Nailed it.

As far as the FAA allowing any more deliveries, it's my opinion that's why you saw the memo about "getting the a/c more mx touch time, and carrying more spares".

That is not true! Delays are because of NEO engines.

They may also threaten to or actually close the denver base...... they closed DTW on spirit. ...

That would cause the most enormous bump and flush in the history of airlines. The entire system would re-shuffle because 300 Denver captains would essentially have their pick of any other domicile and any other seat, for that matter. The number of involuntary displacements would be staggering. Talk about pouring accelerant on a dumpster fire!

Yeee haw.

That is the key. There is little leverage without help from the NMB which we all know is not happening anytime soon. The Company will deal when it makes sense for them to deal. Inability to staff the airline is where things are eventually going to give.

44 pilots have left the Company in 2018 with only 3 of them due to retirements. By my count, 7 CA's left for greener pastures (or possibly an early retirement from the sh!+show). Honestly, this number is lower than I would expect, BUT....combined with the failure to fill classes and plans for significant hiring over coming months, something is going to need to give.

Not to mention the fact that average line values have climbed from 78.07/mo. to 81.77/mo. since January, getting pretty close to the CBA limitation of 85. Imagine how much more leverage we'd have if 38% of our pilots weren't averaging 100+ credit hours per month in 2018! Or the 13% crediting, on average, 130+ in 2018.