Go Back   Airline Pilot Central Forums - Find your next job as a Pilot > > >
 

Welcome to Airline Pilot Forums - Connect and get the inside scoop on Airline Companies

If this is your first visit, be sure to check out the FAQ. Join our community today and start interacting with existing members. Registration is fast, simple and absolutely free.


User Tag List

Reply
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread Display Modes
Old 10-10-2018, 08:54 AM   #1  
On Reserve
Thread Starter
 
Joined APC: Oct 2018
Posts: 15
Default Next steps...

The information presented is my own opinion and does not reflect the opinion of all pilots or our union.

First, the actions taken by the company is textbook negotiation strategy. Each and every day that they can operate with a bankruptcy contract is money in the bank. They will never concede to a contract that will benefit the pilot group until all their financial concerns are alleviated.

That being said, I have serious concerns over the capability of this NC. History has shown that the strategy used by our NC, including Bruce York, Chief Negotiator is that they hoped to achieve an impasse. One doesn't have to look too deeply into any past Negotiator's Newsletter to see that this team wanted to play nice to establish an impasse and start the clock for a cooling off period. Their strategy was a viable one early on but, it is no longer effective. The strategy must change. It must become more aggressive but I am not confident that this is going to occur. My reasoning is the most recent letter from our NC that has openly admitted that obtaining a contract in 2018 is not reality. I agree. Rumors have floated that both the MEC and NC are not actively listening to the pilots. In fact, these rumors go so far as to complain that the MEC and NC are acting on their own accord. So, what's the answer?

First, the pilot group must unify. Unity to the level of no longer be willing to make up for operational failures, unity to fly the contract, unity to utilize the approved methods, i.e. ACARS when talking to SOC, Dispatch, etc. We all fly the line. We all recognize the failures. The operation continues to operate on the finest of thin lines and quite honestly, we do not have to do anything to make it worse. Rather, a cohesive pilot group that flies the contract, ensures the safety of our passengers may be all that is required.

Our pilots continually go above an beyond their job description because that is the right thing to do. If our employer did the right thing, we wouldn't need to do anything but our jobs. We wouldn't be in this situation. We all know that the aircraft logbooks are in disarray. MEL's are listed and not active, MEL's are missing and more concerning, MEL's listed can be incorrect. If an incorrect MEL is used, the aircraft is no longer in airworthy status and your certificates are now at risk. Not to be dramatic but, an inaccurate MEL could allow a crew to operate an aircraft that unbeknownst to them is technically unsafe. No crew member would ever take an aircraft that they believed to be unsafe but it may be occurring and the crew would never know it because of the current shortcomings of our operation.

This pilot group needs to understand that until every pilot agrees that enough is enough that NOTHING is going to change. Conversations with fellow pilots at other airlines often ask me, "what the hell is going on over there?" Other pilot groups recognize the problems here at F9 and our pilots' group failure to respond, why can't we recognize it ourselves? Other pilot groups support us currently but we are quickly becoming the pilot group that fails to help themselves. Eventually, no matter how much support you provide to a person or group, when that person fails to take the necessary steps to improve the situation it becomes very hard to continue to provide that support. We find ourselves in this position currently.

The issues of open time, incentivized trips, etc. are of little significance on the operation. While I don't personally pick up open time, separating the group on any level through the use of lists, harassing phone calls, etc accomplishes nothing. If you disagree with someone's decision to pick up open time address it with them directly and control what you can control.

While I don't think this pilot group has the gumption to actually stand up and while my confidence in this NC is waning, eating our own is not the answer. Direct that frustration to where it belongs--BB and the pure greed that drives him. Don't forget, you are a number in his balance sheet, profit and loss statement and bonus check. Nothing more. Your opinion doesn't matter to him. He doesn't even like you or care about your family.

In closing, this post was not designed to separate our pilots. Our frustration should be voiced to our local reps, MEC and NC. It is their job to represent us and negotiate a contract that we all agree on. Personally, I think they are not meeting this objective.
DimpledBalls is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-10-2018, 10:06 AM   #2  
Gets Weekends Off
 
Mugatu's Avatar
 
Joined APC: Mar 2016
Posts: 335
Default

First post and your upset with the union. Did you write this union busting post on the golf course, DimpleBalls?
Mugatu is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-10-2018, 10:49 AM   #3  
Pro Button Pusher
 
Jetalc's Avatar
 
Joined APC: Mar 2005
Position: A320 Series CA
Posts: 173
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by DimpledBalls View Post
The information presented is my own opinion and does not reflect the opinion of all pilots or our union.

First, the actions taken by the company is textbook negotiation strategy. Each and every day that they can operate with a bankruptcy contract is money in the bank. They will never concede to a contract that will benefit the pilot group until all their financial concerns are alleviated.

That being said, I have serious concerns over the capability of this NC. History has shown that the strategy used by our NC, including Bruce York, Chief Negotiator is that they hoped to achieve an impasse. One doesn't have to look too deeply into any past Negotiator's Newsletter to see that this team wanted to play nice to establish an impasse and start the clock for a cooling off period. Their strategy was a viable one early on but, it is no longer effective. The strategy must change. It must become more aggressive but I am not confident that this is going to occur. My reasoning is the most recent letter from our NC that has openly admitted that obtaining a contract in 2018 is not reality. I agree. Rumors have floated that both the MEC and NC are not actively listening to the pilots. In fact, these rumors go so far as to complain that the MEC and NC are acting on their own accord. So, what's the answer?

First, the pilot group must unify. Unity to the level of no longer be willing to make up for operational failures, unity to fly the contract, unity to utilize the approved methods, i.e. ACARS when talking to SOC, Dispatch, etc. We all fly the line. We all recognize the failures. The operation continues to operate on the finest of thin lines and quite honestly, we do not have to do anything to make it worse. Rather, a cohesive pilot group that flies the contract, ensures the safety of our passengers may be all that is required.

Our pilots continually go above an beyond their job description because that is the right thing to do. If our employer did the right thing, we wouldn't need to do anything but our jobs. We wouldn't be in this situation. We all know that the aircraft logbooks are in disarray. MEL's are listed and not active, MEL's are missing and more concerning, MEL's listed can be incorrect. If an incorrect MEL is used, the aircraft is no longer in airworthy status and your certificates are now at risk. Not to be dramatic but, an inaccurate MEL could allow a crew to operate an aircraft that unbeknownst to them is technically unsafe. No crew member would ever take an aircraft that they believed to be unsafe but it may be occurring and the crew would never know it because of the current shortcomings of our operation.

This pilot group needs to understand that until every pilot agrees that enough is enough that NOTHING is going to change. Conversations with fellow pilots at other airlines often ask me, "what the hell is going on over there?" Other pilot groups recognize the problems here at F9 and our pilots' group failure to respond, why can't we recognize it ourselves? Other pilot groups support us currently but we are quickly becoming the pilot group that fails to help themselves. Eventually, no matter how much support you provide to a person or group, when that person fails to take the necessary steps to improve the situation it becomes very hard to continue to provide that support. We find ourselves in this position currently.

The issues of open time, incentivized trips, etc. are of little significance on the operation. While I don't personally pick up open time, separating the group on any level through the use of lists, harassing phone calls, etc accomplishes nothing. If you disagree with someone's decision to pick up open time address it with them directly and control what you can control.

While I don't think this pilot group has the gumption to actually stand up and while my confidence in this NC is waning, eating our own is not the answer. Direct that frustration to where it belongs--BB and the pure greed that drives him. Don't forget, you are a number in his balance sheet, profit and loss statement and bonus check. Nothing more. Your opinion doesn't matter to him. He doesn't even like you or care about your family.

In closing, this post was not designed to separate our pilots. Our frustration should be voiced to our local reps, MEC and NC. It is their job to represent us and negotiate a contract that we all agree on. Personally, I think they are not meeting this objective.
Excellent post.
Jetalc is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-10-2018, 11:40 AM   #4  
Slave
 
Joined APC: Oct 2016
Position: Hot tub
Posts: 594
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mugatu View Post
First post and your upset with the union. Did you write this union busting post on the golf course, DimpleBalls?
The question should be...... are you involved? Do you volunteer? How often do you speak with your Rep?
ReserveCA is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-10-2018, 11:47 AM   #5  
Gets Weekends Off
 
Joined APC: Mar 2015
Posts: 192
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by DimpledBalls View Post
The information presented is my own opinion and does not reflect the opinion of all pilots or our union.

First, the actions taken by the company is textbook negotiation strategy. Each and every day that they can operate with a bankruptcy contract is money in the bank. They will never concede to a contract that will benefit the pilot group until all their financial concerns are alleviated.

That being said, I have serious concerns over the capability of this NC. History has shown that the strategy used by our NC, including Bruce York, Chief Negotiator is that they hoped to achieve an impasse. One doesn't have to look too deeply into any past Negotiator's Newsletter to see that this team wanted to play nice to establish an impasse and start the clock for a cooling off period. Their strategy was a viable one early on but, it is no longer effective. The strategy must change. It must become more aggressive but I am not confident that this is going to occur. My reasoning is the most recent letter from our NC that has openly admitted that obtaining a contract in 2018 is not reality. I agree. Rumors have floated that both the MEC and NC are not actively listening to the pilots. In fact, these rumors go so far as to complain that the MEC and NC are acting on their own accord. So, what's the answer?

First, the pilot group must unify. Unity to the level of no longer be willing to make up for operational failures, unity to fly the contract, unity to utilize the approved methods, i.e. ACARS when talking to SOC, Dispatch, etc. We all fly the line. We all recognize the failures. The operation continues to operate on the finest of thin lines and quite honestly, we do not have to do anything to make it worse. Rather, a cohesive pilot group that flies the contract, ensures the safety of our passengers may be all that is required.

Our pilots continually go above an beyond their job description because that is the right thing to do. If our employer did the right thing, we wouldn't need to do anything but our jobs. We wouldn't be in this situation. We all know that the aircraft logbooks are in disarray. MEL's are listed and not active, MEL's are missing and more concerning, MEL's listed can be incorrect. If an incorrect MEL is used, the aircraft is no longer in airworthy status and your certificates are now at risk. Not to be dramatic but, an inaccurate MEL could allow a crew to operate an aircraft that unbeknownst to them is technically unsafe. No crew member would ever take an aircraft that they believed to be unsafe but it may be occurring and the crew would never know it because of the current shortcomings of our operation.

This pilot group needs to understand that until every pilot agrees that enough is enough that NOTHING is going to change. Conversations with fellow pilots at other airlines often ask me, "what the hell is going on over there?" Other pilot groups recognize the problems here at F9 and our pilots' group failure to respond, why can't we recognize it ourselves? Other pilot groups support us currently but we are quickly becoming the pilot group that fails to help themselves. Eventually, no matter how much support you provide to a person or group, when that person fails to take the necessary steps to improve the situation it becomes very hard to continue to provide that support. We find ourselves in this position currently.

The issues of open time, incentivized trips, etc. are of little significance on the operation. While I don't personally pick up open time, separating the group on any level through the use of lists, harassing phone calls, etc accomplishes nothing. If you disagree with someone's decision to pick up open time address it with them directly and control what you can control.

While I don't think this pilot group has the gumption to actually stand up and while my confidence in this NC is waning, eating our own is not the answer. Direct that frustration to where it belongs--BB and the pure greed that drives him. Don't forget, you are a number in his balance sheet, profit and loss statement and bonus check. Nothing more. Your opinion doesn't matter to him. He doesn't even like you or care about your family.

In closing, this post was not designed to separate our pilots. Our frustration should be voiced to our local reps, MEC and NC. It is their job to represent us and negotiate a contract that we all agree on. Personally, I think they are not meeting this objective.
Iím sorry but I donít understand the point of your post. After walking onto the flight deck I go through the logbook with a fine tooth comb, then I hand the book over to the FO to review in case I missed something. If for some reason the a/c is unairworthy the airplane doesnít move until our concerns are addressed. This same procedure has occurred on every flight Iíve flown for F9 as both a first officer or captain.

As for the NC, they (and we) are stuck between a rock and a hard place. The system under the RLA only works if both parties negotiate in good faith. If either party fails to satisfy their responsibilities it is up to the NMB to apply pressure on said party up to and including permitting a lockout or strike. The current NMB as constituted has abdicated that responsibility.

We began this journey before the conclusion of the 2016 election. Bruce York, the NC, and all the other parties involved on our behalf decided to follow the spirit of the RLA and engage in a good faith effort to conclude an agreement in a timely manner. That effort failed. The next step was to impress upon the NMB that an impasse in bargaining had occurred and per the purview of the RLA a release to self help should be authorized. The current NMB members, who were appointed following the surprise result of the 2016 election donít believe we should have the opportunity to exercise our right to self help for purely political reasons. Without the threat of a walkout the company has no reason to bargain in good faith, the system fails, and they keep pocketing millions of extra dollars each day.

Do I agree with everything the NC has done, of course not, but hindsight is always 20/20. You can call our good faith efforts naive, we played by the rules and lost. But if you are trying to find someone to blame look no further than Indigo and the NMB, they are the ones who didnít respect the process.
AncientAliens is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-10-2018, 11:58 AM   #6  
Gets Weekends Off
 
Joined APC: Jun 2016
Posts: 357
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by AncientAliens View Post

Do I agree with everything the NC has done, of course not, but hindsight is always 20/20. You can call our good faith efforts naive, we played by the rules and lost. But if you are trying to find someone to blame look no further than Indigo and the NMB, they are the ones who didnít respect the process.
Correct me if Iím wrong, but isnít everything weíve TAíd so far below industry standard?
Trowserchilli is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-10-2018, 11:59 AM   #7  
Gets Weekends Off
 
Joined APC: Apr 2016
Posts: 409
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Trowserchilli View Post
Correct me if Iím wrong, but isnít everything weíve TAíd so far below industry standard?
Yes, lowest in the industry so far. Except for 100% DH pay that was TA'd 2 years ago.
PulledBreaker is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 10-10-2018, 12:09 PM   #8  
Gets Weekends Off
 
Joined APC: Mar 2015
Posts: 192
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Trowserchilli View Post
Correct me if Iím wrong, but isnít everything weíve TAíd so far below industry standard?
Like I said, I donít agree with everything theyíve done. Itís on us to vote a TA down if itís anything less than industry standard across the board.
AncientAliens is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-10-2018, 12:59 PM   #9  
Gets Weekends Off
 
Joined APC: Feb 2014
Position: Lineholder
Posts: 331
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by AncientAliens View Post
I’m sorry but I don’t understand the point of your post. After walking onto the flight deck I go through the logbook with a fine tooth comb, then I hand the book over to the FO to review in case I missed something. If for some reason the a/c is unairworthy the airplane doesn’t move until our concerns are addressed. This same procedure has occurred on every flight I’ve flown for F9 as both a first officer or captain.

As for the NC, they (and we) are stuck between a rock and a hard place. The system under the RLA only works if both parties negotiate in good faith. If either party fails to satisfy their responsibilities it is up to the NMB to apply pressure on said party up to and including permitting a lockout or strike. The current NMB as constituted has abdicated that responsibility.

We began this journey before the conclusion of the 2016 election. Bruce York, the NC, and all the other parties involved on our behalf decided to follow the spirit of the RLA and engage in a good faith effort to conclude an agreement in a timely manner. That effort failed. The next step was to impress upon the NMB that an impasse in bargaining had occurred and per the purview of the RLA a release to self help should be authorized. The current NMB members, who were appointed following the surprise result of the 2016 election don’t believe we should have the opportunity to exercise our right to self help for purely political reasons. Without the threat of a walkout the company has no reason to bargain in good faith, the system fails, and they keep pocketing millions of extra dollars each day.

Do I agree with everything the NC has done, of course not, but hindsight is always 20/20. You can call our good faith efforts naive, we played by the rules and lost. But if you are trying to find someone to blame look no further than Indigo and the NMB, they are the ones who didn’t respect the process.
I agree with this.

THE PROCESS ONLY WORKS IF THE NMB ALLOWS FOR SELF-HELP! That's it. That is all. Without that possibility, the company is under no obligation to do anything in our favor (outside of the lack of ability to expand). If no other pilot joined F9 from today until whenever, why would Indigo change anything? The aircraft orders could go elsewhere. The current route structure we fly would continue and be continually scaled back as needed (due to attrition). They could essentially keep F9 the exact same until the last pilot retired or left then close the doors. With every person that leaves, it actually makes their job easier w/ less manpower to have to deal with and/or pay their share of insurance, disability, etc. Hell, there's not even something that prevents them from starting a new airline w/ a slightly better contract (it just has to be better than most regionals).

The point of this thread is appropo. However, there really is no such thing as ultimate pilot unity. You can probably get somewhere between 70-90% of the pilot group to act in accordance w/ all the actions proposed but there will never be 100% participation. History has proven this via multiple other airline negotiations. I happen to think the F9 pilot group is pretty close to terminal unity from those who are going to contribute. And from what I've seen (which is limited), people are already checking and double checking Mx logs, MELs, manifests, etc. We're all already doing the job as per our guidance in Vol 1 and 2 and will continue to.

So, while the frustration of this thread is certainly understandable, until we get a favorable NMB stance/decision (or leave), things will stay exactly the same. Complaining about the MEC or NC is displaced.
dracir1 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-10-2018, 01:33 PM   #10  
On Reserve
Thread Starter
 
Joined APC: Oct 2018
Posts: 15
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by ReserveCA View Post
The question should be...... are you involved? Do you volunteer? How often do you speak with your Rep?
Mugatu,

I guarantee that I am more involved than you will ever be. The point of view is coming from that perspective. It is my first post because I have been heavily involved and see what is happening. I cannot simply sit back and watch what I know is occurring to occur. How many Union meeetings have you been to?

You are entitled to your opinion but in this case, it is an uninformed one.
DimpledBalls is offline   Reply With Quote
 
 
 

 
Reply
 



Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are On
Pingbacks are On
Refbacks are On


Related Topics
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
Zac Hirzel steps off Hawaiian Holdings Board Makanakis Hawaiian 5 04-07-2016 11:42 AM
Steps if unable to get first class medical? TimeLordPilot Pilot Health 2 01-15-2013 04:50 AM
FAA steps to protect jets structural fatigue shiznit Major 0 11-15-2010 02:54 PM
Government steps in again, bails out AIG with $85B ryan1234 Money Talk 21 09-23-2008 03:27 PM


All times are GMT -8. The time now is 02:36 AM.


vBulletin® v3.9.3.5, Copyright ©2000-2018, MH Sub I, LLC dba vBulletin
User Alert System provided by Advanced User Tagging v3.3.0 (Lite) - vBulletin Mods & Addons Copyright © 2018 DragonByte Technologies Ltd.
Website Copyright ©2000 - 2017 MH Sub I, LLC dba Internet Brands

Search Engine Optimization by vBSEO 3.6.1