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Old 10-10-2018, 01:09 PM   #11  
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DimpledBalls View Post
Mugatu,

I guarantee that I am more involved than you will ever be. The point of view is coming from that perspective. It is my first post because I have been heavily involved and see what is happening. I cannot simply sit back and watch what I know is occurring to occur. How many Union meeetings have you been to?

You are entitled to your opinion but in this case, it is an uninformed one.
That was ReserveCA who was asking the question.

But I will ask, if you feel the union has failed you, what do you propose? What would you do different from this point out?
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Old 10-10-2018, 08:22 PM   #12  
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I will never say that I hold all the answers to solve the issues but, it is obvious to me and many others that not enough is being done.

First, communicate better with the pilot group whether that be rallies, meetings or more pub events. They are actively holding these events but the message needs to be more clear. The rhetoric that is provided is nothing shy of pathetic. Canned responses that fail to accurately represent the current “asks” and what it ultimately means for our future. Pay close attention during these events. You will operate under the next contract for 8 years, not the 5 years being mentioned by our NC. They claim that the early openers on the following contract will in effect, make this a 3-3.5 year contract. That is not reality. We had early openers on the contract that we are negotiating now and we have been working on this for the better part of 2.5 years.

It is my opinion that ALPA National is now applying a great deal of pressure to get a TA in front of our pilots. They just want this done because of the vast amount of resources that our negotiations are consuming. The pressure that is being applied ultimately shorts F9 pilots on some very important issues. Obviously, pay being the focus. If the pay rate gets into the ballpark of other 121 carriers, it will be enough to pass a contract. I say no, it is not enough. Pay is important but other areas are just as important. Areas such as health care, retirement and long term disability, et al are important too. When these areas of the contract are discussed at union meetings and pub events the answer from union reps will, without question put F9 last or second to last in all these categories compared to our peers. This is not “Bringing Frontier Pilots into the pattern”

Contracts take time. The NMB is never going to release this pilot group and if we want an industry contract, every pilot needs to fight for it. That fight begins with every pilot expressing their concerns to the MEC, NC, LEC.

Look at my previous post. I am not stating that I have lost confidence in my NC, rather my confidence is diminishing as this negotiation goes on and on. The NC understand the importance of getting a contract completed and I simply feel that key areas will be sacrificed vs. getting it right. If an industry standard contract takes an extra year that would be better than operating under a substandard one.
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Old 10-11-2018, 04:49 AM   #13  
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Originally Posted by DimpledBalls View Post
I will never say that I hold all the answers to solve the issues but, it is obvious to me and many others that not enough is being done.

First, communicate better with the pilot group whether that be rallies, meetings or more pub events. They are actively holding these events but the message needs to be more clear. The rhetoric that is provided is nothing shy of pathetic. Canned responses that fail to accurately represent the current “asks” and what it ultimately means for our future. Pay close attention during these events. You will operate under the next contract for 8 years, not the 5 years being mentioned by our NC. They claim that the early openers on the following contract will in effect, make this a 3-3.5 year contract. That is not reality. We had early openers on the contract that we are negotiating now and we have been working on this for the better part of 2.5 years.

It is my opinion that ALPA National is now applying a great deal of pressure to get a TA in front of our pilots. They just want this done because of the vast amount of resources that our negotiations are consuming. The pressure that is being applied ultimately shorts F9 pilots on some very important issues. Obviously, pay being the focus. If the pay rate gets into the ballpark of other 121 carriers, it will be enough to pass a contract. I say no, it is not enough. Pay is important but other areas are just as important. Areas such as health care, retirement and long term disability, et al are important too. When these areas of the contract are discussed at union meetings and pub events the answer from union reps will, without question put F9 last or second to last in all these categories compared to our peers. This is not “Bringing Frontier Pilots into the pattern”

Contracts take time. The NMB is never going to release this pilot group and if we want an industry contract, every pilot needs to fight for it. That fight begins with every pilot expressing their concerns to the MEC, NC, LEC.

Look at my previous post. I am not stating that I have lost confidence in my NC, rather my confidence is diminishing as this negotiation goes on and on. The NC understand the importance of getting a contract completed and I simply feel that key areas will be sacrificed vs. getting it right. If an industry standard contract takes an extra year that would be better than operating under a substandard one.

I mostly agree, lthough I think they’re communicating fine. There’s nothing new to report right now. Otherwise I agree.

If they are feeling pressure to get it done (and I expect the NMB to also ratchet up the pressure on the NC in a couple weeks as well) and they cave to it, we’ve always got our NO vote. It will be up to those who are vehemently opposed to it to educate those who see a 30-40% raise and drool over it. I’m starting to think that no matter how long this drags out the first thing we see for a vote will be mediocre.
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Old 10-11-2018, 05:32 AM   #14  
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DimpledBalls View Post
I will never say that I hold all the answers to solve the issues but, it is obvious to me and many others that not enough is being done.

First, communicate better with the pilot group whether that be rallies, meetings or more pub events. They are actively holding these events but the message needs to be more clear. The rhetoric that is provided is nothing shy of pathetic. Canned responses that fail to accurately represent the current “asks” and what it ultimately means for our future. Pay close attention during these events. You will operate under the next contract for 8 years, not the 5 years being mentioned by our NC. They claim that the early openers on the following contract will in effect, make this a 3-3.5 year contract. That is not reality. We had early openers on the contract that we are negotiating now and we have been working on this for the better part of 2.5 years.

It is my opinion that ALPA National is now applying a great deal of pressure to get a TA in front of our pilots. They just want this done because of the vast amount of resources that our negotiations are consuming. The pressure that is being applied ultimately shorts F9 pilots on some very important issues. Obviously, pay being the focus. If the pay rate gets into the ballpark of other 121 carriers, it will be enough to pass a contract. I say no, it is not enough. Pay is important but other areas are just as important. Areas such as health care, retirement and long term disability, et al are important too. When these areas of the contract are discussed at union meetings and pub events the answer from union reps will, without question put F9 last or second to last in all these categories compared to our peers. This is not “Bringing Frontier Pilots into the pattern”

Contracts take time. The NMB is never going to release this pilot group and if we want an industry contract, every pilot needs to fight for it. That fight begins with every pilot expressing their concerns to the MEC, NC, LEC.

Look at my previous post. I am not stating that I have lost confidence in my NC, rather my confidence is diminishing as this negotiation goes on and on. The NC understand the importance of getting a contract completed and I simply feel that key areas will be sacrificed vs. getting it right. If an industry standard contract takes an extra year that would be better than operating under a substandard one.
The administration we negotiate in is simply in the company’s favor. Nothing we can do about it except file a lawsuit, which ALPA did. I’ve been to a couple PUB events and I’m happy with the communication. What else can they say right now except repeating themselves?

As far as what’s been TA’d and being behind industry standard, well, that’s up to us to decide when we vote. Nobody will get everything they want. I will vote on the entire package.

I have no problem with ALPA’s strategy.
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Old 10-11-2018, 06:39 AM   #15  
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I'm always concerned when we talk of voting down a bogus TA like it's easy to do.

True, it's a legitimate card to play if necessary, but it's kind of like the "last" card to play, and there is danger in that.

Road shows are 100% pro-TA campaigns with big resources behind them, funded by all of us (even those who hate the TA will pay for it's promotion) There is never anything close to a funded and organized counter campaign to a TA. It will only consist of talks in the cockpit and APC postings. Road shows will have designated meetings, power point presentations, vocal union officials, and everything will be spun to sound amazing.

If the NC lets a TA out of the box before it's fair and honest and what we deserve, we have already lost.

Of course if it sucks bad enough we will vote it down, but the threshold for accepting or being buffaloed into accepting crap increases precipitously once something exists to vote on.

I wan't a TA worth having that won't just pass by narrowest of margin.
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Old 10-11-2018, 09:35 AM   #16  
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DimpledBalls View Post
I will never say that I hold all the answers to solve the issues but, it is obvious to me and many others that not enough is being done.

First, communicate better with the pilot group whether that be rallies, meetings or more pub events. They are actively holding these events but the message needs to be more clear. The rhetoric that is provided is nothing shy of pathetic. Canned responses that fail to accurately represent the current “asks” and what it ultimately means for our future. Pay close attention during these events. You will operate under the next contract for 8 years, not the 5 years being mentioned by our NC. They claim that the early openers on the following contract will in effect, make this a 3-3.5 year contract. That is not reality. We had early openers on the contract that we are negotiating now and we have been working on this for the better part of 2.5 years.

It is my opinion that ALPA National is now applying a great deal of pressure to get a TA in front of our pilots. They just want this done because of the vast amount of resources that our negotiations are consuming. The pressure that is being applied ultimately shorts F9 pilots on some very important issues. Obviously, pay being the focus. If the pay rate gets into the ballpark of other 121 carriers, it will be enough to pass a contract. I say no, it is not enough. Pay is important but other areas are just as important. Areas such as health care, retirement and long term disability, et al are important too. When these areas of the contract are discussed at union meetings and pub events the answer from union reps will, without question put F9 last or second to last in all these categories compared to our peers. This is not “Bringing Frontier Pilots into the pattern”

Contracts take time. The NMB is never going to release this pilot group and if we want an industry contract, every pilot needs to fight for it. That fight begins with every pilot expressing their concerns to the MEC, NC, LEC.

Look at my previous post. I am not stating that I have lost confidence in my NC, rather my confidence is diminishing as this negotiation goes on and on. The NC understand the importance of getting a contract completed and I simply feel that key areas will be sacrificed vs. getting it right. If an industry standard contract takes an extra year that would be better than operating under a substandard one.
I vehemently disagree with this post. Communication from the MEC is excellent (when they have something to communicate.) This rhetoric you speak of, is truthful information from them. You may not like it, but to say it's rhetoric is pure stupidity. You're not aware with the current "ask" you say?? Pay attention and read the comms you've apparently missed. They've made this stuff easy to reference. Your own lack of knowledge on how to retrieve said information is not the fault of the MEC. Again, if you were paying attention, you'd also know that there is no final proposal regarding duration. The NC at the last pub event made it quite clear in the latest proposal that duration was TBD, and they also clearly stated that in the updated proposal communication.

I don't believe the NC or MEC will cave to anything. ALPA national doesn't decide jack squat, this pilot group does. You think the MEC and NC would allow themselves to be coerced by "ALPA" as you say to put out a $hit TA that gets voted down which requires more attention and more time and more money from ALPA to then get the second attempt ratified?? Your logic is just purely illogical. Everybody just wants the done, but that does not mean that any TA put out there will pass. Only the right deal will pass. ALPA, the MEC and the NC are keenly aware of this fact. No offense man, but the only thing pathetic around here was your post and your summation of where this process is going.

Let these guys do their jobs without being a freaking monday morning quarterback. You and I don't do their jobs and I'm smart enough to know that there's a lot that I don't know. You should consider adopting this mindset as well.
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Old 10-11-2018, 09:20 PM   #17  
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Wheelswatch View Post
I'm always concerned when we talk of voting down a bogus TA like it's easy to do.

True, it's a legitimate card to play if necessary, but it's kind of like the "last" card to play, and there is danger in that.

Road shows are 100% pro-TA campaigns with big resources behind them, funded by all of us (even those who hate the TA will pay for it's promotion) There is never anything close to a funded and organized counter campaign to a TA. It will only consist of talks in the cockpit and APC postings. Road shows will have designated meetings, power point presentations, vocal union officials, and everything will be spun to sound amazing.

If the NC lets a TA out of the box before it's fair and honest and what we deserve, we have already lost.

Of course if it sucks bad enough we will vote it down, but the threshold for accepting or being buffaloed into accepting crap increases precipitously once something exists to vote on.

I wan't a TA worth having that won't just pass by narrowest of margin.
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
This right here, guys and girls, is what it’s all about.

Whatever TA comes out of your negotiating committee, is very likely to pass a vote, no matter how horrible it is.

Why? Because when your NC agrees to the TA, historically speaking, your management negotiators will require your NC and MEC to sign a paper requiring them to fully endorse the TA. Basically they are going to be required to sell it to you.

You’ve been beaten up by management. You’ve been treated like crap. There are probably many among you now feeling like you just want the whole thing over with and you’d love a substantial raise and some QOL gains and move on. Many of you are right where they want you to be.

Hang in there. Communicate with your reps to make sure they don’t cave and try to put something in front of you. Once it’s in front of the membership, chances are, whatever it is, it’ll pass. It’s up to all of you to make sure your NC doesn’t TA anything that isn’t up to your expectations. Let them know how you feel by calling or emailing them. I can’t stress how important that is.

Once the TA is out of the bag, it’ll pass. Make sure it’s worthy of passing.
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Old 10-11-2018, 10:20 PM   #18  
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The TA is going to be garbage and it’s going to pass.

Who is trying to leave? Why would anyone stay? Other airlines with Denver bases have less than a year to get denver based. As a former F9 employee I am baffled why people choose to “wait it out”. The schedules suck, work rules suck, management hates you. Senior captains who think they are making hay smugly pick up open time for FO rates at other companies. State your excuses and then look at yourself in the mirror. Is this the company you dreamed about working for?
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Old 10-12-2018, 05:31 AM   #19  
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The TA is going to be garbage and it’s going to pass.

Who is trying to leave? Why would anyone stay? Other airlines with Denver bases have less than a year to get denver based. As a former F9 employee I am baffled why people choose to “wait it out”. The schedules suck, work rules suck, management hates you. Senior captains who think they are making hay smugly pick up open time for FO rates at other companies. State your excuses and then look at yourself in the mirror. Is this the company you dreamed about working for?



You are the BEST Monday morning quarterback I have seen! Easy for you to throw stones DB! Now that you do not work here why do you care who stays here or not? Go Troll on your current airlines forum. The way that you present yourself on F9's forum, you must have been a charm to fly with. All I can say is good riddance!
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Old 10-12-2018, 05:42 AM   #20  
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You are the BEST Monday morning quarterback I have seen! Easy for you to throw stones DB! Now that you do not work here why do you care who stays here or not? Go Troll on your current airlines forum. The way that you present yourself on F9's forum, you must have been a charm to fly with. All I can say is good riddance!
Whether they are here or not, they are still right.
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