Contract 2023
 

With negotiations opening soon and phone interviews starting I thought it would be good to start a thread about improvements our pilots are looking for in the next contract. Delta made massive gains with 321 NEO’s paying $400 per hour, 18% 401k, and 18 hour call out for reserve pilots.

Things I personally think need to be addressed.

Pay, 401k, LTD

QOL improvements I would like to see, profit sharing, holiday pay, improved training pay, red eye override, international pay/ customs pay, improved reassignment language, 200% premium and a new system that benefits the entire pilot group, not a select 5-10 pilots, 15 days off for reserve pilots, improved reserve rules, 5:15 calendar day, additional add pay for extensions/ long duty days, a 5th week of vacation, positive space commuting near holidays, additional $20 per duty period to cover not having crew meals, uniform allowance (our shirts are supposed to be white, not yellow), real sleep rooms, change sick time to personal time so the company can’t come after you for using it for your dead dog, sick buy back at end of year for premium pay.

1.25% over 82 is something we need to keep.

As BB said “our pilots out earn Delta pilots”. Let’s hold him to that in this round of negotiations!

What is 5:15 calendar day? Sorry, new here. Trying to learn.

5hr 15min pay per calendar day worked, minimum. Reserve days need to be tied to this too; or 5 hours for reserve. 15 or 16 off in a 30/31 day month.

I like your list however what do they buy your sick
time back at? Premium based on what credit? If you’re suggesting make sick worth the 515 that’s a give.

I wouldn’t be completely opposed to pto language however I would rather see sick stay current book and the DL min calendar credit for sec 19’s. They just got that and it should put and end to those. The ability to Increase vac days with pto would be more of an ability worth having than using for sick imo. But again a credit would need to be assigned to pto.

For the life of me I can’t figure out why pilots are so smart and so dense at the same time. You do realize that plastering what you want gives the company the true max line. They know they don’t need to reach that because if you say 380 they know 375 would still be a yes. But you know why not bargain in public

I get what you're saying but then where to we have a discussion about this? I don't think the things we are after are a big secret. They have their "max line" and ours will be decided with a vote. If it doesn't meet our expectations we vote no. Maybe I'm slow but this doesn't appear to me that we need to play it like Texas Hold'em.

I really don't think "negotiating in public" is as dangerous and stupid as some say. And are about to say.

Let's be real. We pattern bargain off of other airlines contracts. Thank God we are late in in the cycle and get to look up to Delta to set the bar. If our contract was up first and we had to raise the bar for the rest of the industry.... lol

At this time Alaska, Delta, JetBlue, Hawaiian and technically Spirit have reached new contracts. Hopefully United, AA and Southwest reach new deals soon. If that happens we will be the last one in the industry to get a deal. The bar will very clearly have been set. I really don't think us discussing it here is somehow going to give away secrets to management.

I say we should have a robust discussion and I hope people feel comfortable asking questions. Everyone can learn something. And some can learn a lot.

I did receive the phone survey. I will give the union credit that it seemed to ask all the right questions. I felt that my desires were heard.

First of all, we currently have a minimum pay per duty period, not per calendar day. This is key.

If you get a 3 day trip that has a long layover and only operates on day 1 and day 3, it'll only pay 10 hours and not 15 hours.

This was one of the big things we couldn't get in the last contract

We will see bonuses increased to 200k before we see a new contract

Then we should have plenty of time to have our wants and needs ironed out.

This thread will be called “Comedy 2023” by indigo…..

Absolutely correct ^. Poke the bear 2.0

Here's what I want

JetBlue hourly rates
​​​16% DC
No increase in Healthcare costs
No increase in additional child surcharge
Increase duration of own occupation LTD
Additional protection against Section 19s
Improved language on grievence resolution

The above items are critical
The below items would be nice

Redeye override
Intl override
Ability to drop to less than 60/70 hours
5 weeks of vacation at 15 years of service

Jet Blue rates?

He's all #320forthe320

I'd like to see the general consensus after UA, WN, and AA get theirs. You know they are going to clear 320 by quite a bit.

is that before we negotiate a JCBA with American?

Yep. ........

That's $320/ hour this year, 330 next year and 340 the year after that.

If it takes two or three years to negotiate our contract, "JetBlue Rates?" will be $340/ hour.

Pay rates etc are a no-brainer. Contract enforcement, more self-help language, and streamlined grievance resolution are musts that few people mention.

Our 600s have more seats than a delta 767.
https://www.delta.com/us/en/aircraft/boeing/767-400er

Regionals are paying a fortune to 50 seat RJ guys.

Forget stupid jetblew. 767 rates.

Just to throw out a piece of information: at Delta the 767 and the A321 are pay banded together.

The A320/B737 are a slightly lower pay rate.

Contrary to popular opinion I think this is something that needs to go. It’s a valuable piece of negotiating capital, and if the rates are high enough you’ll never notice. This would also drive more open time, more pilots required to staff the high utilization rates, and a QOL improvement for anybody that decided they could afford to work less.

Imagine a world in which you didn’t have to credit 100 hours a month with 12 days off to feel like you can buy a Miata that’s as nice as your neighbor’s that flies for Delta.

Not sure that "more self help language" is a thing unless I misunderstood what you mean.

A more streamlined grievence process is definitely a must, and I believe that's a top priority for the union. So that's good

I have mixed feelings on the 125% over 82 provision. I believe its unique to us?

Obviously it does allow hard workers (*****s) to make big bucks, but it also allows the company to carry less total pilots. Kind of a mixed bag in my mind

Im for removing the over 82 incentive and having it translate to higher hourly rates instead!

More instances and leeway where the pilot can contractually resolve an issue without having to rely on the company to do so. Ie no hotel van, no hotel room, etc

Gotcha. Makes sense.

I was thinking "self help" ie being released to self help as in a strike

I will say…

This thread in its entirety is a bad idea. All of the info shared here SHOULD be private information sent to your local reps. That’s it. Let the NC do their job…

I will mention, however, that it’s surprising how low some people are willing to accept…Jet Blue rates? Really?

What this thread should be about is generating momentum for those who are expecting to compare the new TA that we eventually get to the existing contract we have now. That is a silly expectation.

We should be comparing the new TA to the conditions that exist NOW (or will exist after everyone else has their contracts) in the industry. Let’s not fall into the trap of the last contract vote…

As I explained in a previous post, we will be negotiating off of all the other industry contracts. Pattern bargaining. We will be the last to go and will almost certainly have every other airlines new contract to compare to and bargain off of.

We aren't exactly spilling secrets to management here.

As for the JetBlue rates... yeah. By the time we get this thing done, they will be at $340/ hour. From our future top rate of $270 plus all the other gains I want, it's a floor to go off of. Throw in improvements to LTD, 401K DC %, soft pay, min day, etc and you are looking at reality.

The only thing that could happen that would dramatically change the landscape would be United, AA and Southwest leapfroging Delta and then Spirit/ JetBlue getting a better JCBA before we reach a TA. If that happens, then yes, my $340 rate won't be high enough. But if Delta remains the top of the industry and Spirit/ JetBlue don't have a higher JCBA, $340 is reasonable.

We will have a lot of other contracts to compare to when it comes time. United, AA and Southwest need to get their sh|t together and get good contracts.

***Michael Scott "Thank you!" gif. ***

This is a good post. 1.25 over 82 is unique to Frontier, and I’d be willing to part with it, but absolutely not unless we are offered pay rates that are substantially better than what Spirit just signed.

200% premium would be a must if the 125% were to go away. Giving up any soft time is a bad idea imo. You’ll never get it back. And I’m rarely over 82. Payrates can go down in a recession/downturn. It’s tough to get a judge to readjust/takeaway provisions.

-Pay realistically somewhere between the DAL 321-321NEO rates. Especially since we have more pax in our 320s and are transitioning to receiving a ton of 321neos.
-LTD own occupation of AT LEAST 20 years. (id like to see to 65)
-401k contribution increased to 18%
-Min DAY guarantee. No more of this 3 day 11hr redeye stuff.
-Min days off for reserve and lineholders 13/14 with the ability for reserves to drop 2 days on "low credit months"
-Intl. per diem and a per diem increase
-Redeye/intl override
-16-18hr long call
-3hr short call (this would also incentivize CS to offer premium more due to not being able to instantly get a pilot somewhere)
-Drop to 0. Probably wont happen, but dropping below 65hrs any month would be nice, even if it is just to 40.
-Lower insurance costs
-FLICA paid for
-Medical paid for each year
-Only F9 pilots touch F9 metal
-IF CS is not going to be offering much premium and stuffing reserves into all open trips first, then I want to see ALL open time pick up increased to 125% baseline.
-If/when we get wifi onboard, pilots get free access.


oh yeah, and NO concessions. Not in this market. I dont think any of this is unrealistic to ask for.

No concessions on anything. Vaca rules stay as well therefore. Two weeks of vaca got me the entire month off with sliding and stretching for 75 hours. That should stay that way.

DL 321 rates as a minimum. We’re flying 240 pax in them soon for crying out loud. 1 for 1 same rate or better. Over 82 can stay but I shouldn’t have to work more to get paid the same as my neighbors so
rates need to be 1 for 1 the same. We fly more pax and do more for less. So pay up.

18% DC.

LTD I improvements.

Serious language for company violating CBA when they are found in the wrong.

That’s all I can come up with after 3 coffees. Carry on.

Getting rid of 1.25% over 82 is a concession. Absolutely 0 reason to give a single concession in this environment.

Jetblue/ Spirit rates are a bridge for the JCBA they are about to start negotiating. We definitely need to be negotiating well above that.

It’s not a concession if something else is negotiated that is of equal or greater value. Personally, as a minimum credit flyer, that item isn’t doing much for me. I agree that I’d rather see higher rates than keep the 1.25 over 82. That rule makes it much easier for the company to short-staff the airline.

Agreed. The JetBlue rates aren't too bad. The Spirit rates are a good bit behind though. $14/ hour lower at the top of the scale and a bit more lower on the scale. For us, JetBlue rates are the low bar to shoot for. The Spirit rates really shouldn't even be considered as part of the industry averages

In addition to what I have seen…

-Holiday pay

-IF they aren’t willing to give us straight DL 321 pay they had better put at 321 override % in

-PS

-Snap up

-IF we get XLRs before the next round of negotiations we had better be prepared with long haul provisions (crew rest, DH, food, ect)

This is the same sentiment that was said last negotiation - right up until the point where a bottom of the industry TA was sent out for vote (that included a line generator called PBS that the NC said they would absolutely never accept).

There are too many around who still remember…

As for rates, there’s no way I’m voting for anything less than that of an average of the top 5 of 767/321 rates. Unless we have a snap up (which is, in essence, getting the same thing).

No one's mentioned a reduction in the banding/slope of the payscale, but I think it's pretty important to the newer folks. And maybe important to the company for recruiting and attrition. I keep hearing that the last contract focused on rates at the top of scale since the airline was top heavy, but that's not the situation any more. It's currently a pretty large pay cut to come here versus 2-3+ year regional captain pay and takes years to break even.