MEC Chairman
12-14-2023, 06:58 PM
#21
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Mar 2021
Posts: 1,110
Originally Posted by Stayontarget
For those dreamers out there Hawaiian stock shot up 287% overnight without warning this month. More realistically fuel is getting cheaper and airline stocks have been on a tear.
It did. Alaska is buying them, at a publicly announced share price of $18 per share. Public news released on December 3.
https://finance.yahoo.com/quote/HA/history?p=HA
https://news.alaskaair.com/newsroom/alaska-airlines-and-hawaiian-airlines-to-combine-expanding-benefits-and-choice-for-travelers-throughout-hawaii-and-the-west-coast/
.
Last edited by hercretired; 12-14-2023 at 07:15 PM.
12-15-2023, 04:00 AM
#22
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Mar 2016
Posts: 443
Originally Posted by hercretired
It did. Alaska is buying them, at a publicly announced share price of $18 per share. Public news released on December 3.
https://finance.yahoo.com/quote/HA/history?p=HA
https://news.alaskaair.com/newsroom/alaska-airlines-and-hawaiian-airlines-to-combine-expanding-benefits-and-choice-for-travelers-throughout-hawaii-and-the-west-coast/
.
https://finance.yahoo.com/quote/HA/history?p=HA
https://news.alaskaair.com/newsroom/alaska-airlines-and-hawaiian-airlines-to-combine-expanding-benefits-and-choice-for-travelers-throughout-hawaii-and-the-west-coast/
.
12-15-2023, 04:29 AM
#23
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Mar 2016
Posts: 443
Union guys sign NDAs but Franke doesn’t bring them to Indigo board meetings. Union only knows what the company tells them and it’s limited to only what they need to know, It doesn’t include Frontier’s business strategy.
That being said, TS and certain ALPA reps sit in an echo chamber of complete self misery. I got very tired of him telling us in ground school how stupid the company is with all the big TS eye rolls. You all know what I’m talking about. Felt like junior high. But if I were Denver based, at a certain age and a certain seniority, it would make sense to leave solely on QOL and our type of growth plans (or say a commuter who can’t do turns, etc) . I don’t live in Denver so I’m not subject to those decisions. I’m happy where I’m at except for pay. And there isn’t a person out there who doesn’t know our negotiating season is opposite of everyone else. And we all know it takes years to get a new contract thanks to NRLB and NMB so nobody act surprised or ****ed off how this all works. Everyone is entitled to do whatever they want but making an emotional decision to leave “because everyone else is doing it” isn't the brightest thing to do.
That being said, TS and certain ALPA reps sit in an echo chamber of complete self misery. I got very tired of him telling us in ground school how stupid the company is with all the big TS eye rolls. You all know what I’m talking about. Felt like junior high. But if I were Denver based, at a certain age and a certain seniority, it would make sense to leave solely on QOL and our type of growth plans (or say a commuter who can’t do turns, etc) . I don’t live in Denver so I’m not subject to those decisions. I’m happy where I’m at except for pay. And there isn’t a person out there who doesn’t know our negotiating season is opposite of everyone else. And we all know it takes years to get a new contract thanks to NRLB and NMB so nobody act surprised or ****ed off how this all works. Everyone is entitled to do whatever they want but making an emotional decision to leave “because everyone else is doing it” isn't the brightest thing to do.
12-15-2023, 05:27 AM
#24
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Jun 2021
Position: Joystick Operator
Posts: 785
Originally Posted by Mugatu
Union guys sign NDAs but Franke doesn’t bring them to Indigo board meetings. Union only knows what the company tells them and it’s limited to only what they need to know, It doesn’t include Frontier’s business strategy.
That being said, TS and certain ALPA reps sit in an echo chamber of complete self misery. I got very tired of him telling us in ground school how stupid the company is with all the big TS eye rolls. You all know what I’m talking about. Felt like junior high. But if I were Denver based, at a certain age and a certain seniority, it would make sense to leave solely on QOL and our type of growth plans (or say a commuter who can’t do turns, etc) . I don’t live in Denver so I’m not subject to those decisions. I’m happy where I’m at except for pay. And there isn’t a person out there who doesn’t know our negotiating season is opposite of everyone else. And we all know it takes years to get a new contract thanks to NRLB and NMB so nobody act surprised or ****ed off how this all works. Everyone is entitled to do whatever they want but making an emotional decision to leave “because everyone else is doing it” isn't the brightest thing to do.
That being said, TS and certain ALPA reps sit in an echo chamber of complete self misery. I got very tired of him telling us in ground school how stupid the company is with all the big TS eye rolls. You all know what I’m talking about. Felt like junior high. But if I were Denver based, at a certain age and a certain seniority, it would make sense to leave solely on QOL and our type of growth plans (or say a commuter who can’t do turns, etc) . I don’t live in Denver so I’m not subject to those decisions. I’m happy where I’m at except for pay. And there isn’t a person out there who doesn’t know our negotiating season is opposite of everyone else. And we all know it takes years to get a new contract thanks to NRLB and NMB so nobody act surprised or ****ed off how this all works. Everyone is entitled to do whatever they want but making an emotional decision to leave “because everyone else is doing it” isn't the brightest thing to do.
Everyone makes their own decisions on why they are leaving, but what I have seen, is most of these guys are DEN guys who aren't senior enough to even hold DEN as a CA.
12-15-2023, 11:48 AM
#25
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Jun 2014
Position: A320 CA
Posts: 491
Originally Posted by HSCompressor
Hes going to regret going, when we merge with UAL a year from now and he loses all that seniority that he could’ve gotten with the SLI.
I mean, that’s the rumor, right?
I mean, that’s the rumor, right?
For a great airline career, simply follow me and do the opposite!
12-18-2023, 10:39 AM
#26
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Feb 2014
Position: Lineholder
Posts: 1,356
Originally Posted by HSCompressor
Hes going to regret going, when we merge with UAL a year from now and he loses all that seniority that he could’ve gotten with the SLI.
I mean, that’s the rumor, right?
I mean, that’s the rumor, right?
But, that would basically eliminate ULCCs from the market and the govt won't let that happen. We really don't affect that many routes but it's just enough for us to be used as an "alternative" for the protection of the consumer against monopolies/price setting. Our only argument against would be that our product is so inferior that despite our low cost, we still don't get the traffic to be very profitable.
As such, this airline is stuck. There's no one to merge with. It can't be bought. And it doesn't have the right leadership/ownership to improve as the multiple base/Allegiant strategy won't work either. And the union, who I honestly think DOES try hard, isn't equipped with the right galvanizing/fortifying efforts to overcome the obvious disharmony among the pilot force. Last contract cycle, 70+% voted to be paid an hourly rate less than just about EVERY OTHER AIRLINE willfully (touting drop/swap/trade rules that are easily nullified by scheduling in a way that's not transparent to us). That, coupled with the obvious lackluster performance and customer service mantra we have means we can't retain pilots. The ONLY pilots who come here are cadets and ones who weren't offered a better alternative. And, as soon as they do get here, the often ARE offered and leave.
Every move seems like arranging deck chairs on the Titanic. I'll admit i'm scared sh/tless about giving up multiple years of seniority, but I'm beginning to think I don't have a choice. I'm not sure if it's admirable or stupid to hang on to the bitter end but I don't want to find out...
12-18-2023, 10:59 AM
#27
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Mar 2021
Posts: 1,110
Originally Posted by dracir1
I actually used to think one of the Big 3 would buy us. It made sense from a #s and aircraft orders standpoint. All of the majors hire 2000 every 6-9 months - our entire seniority list could be absorbed and it wouldn't be much of a bump for them. And EVERY airline could use new 321neo's (even if they don't come for another 3-5 years after the engines are inspected/fixed).
But, that would basically eliminate ULCCs from the market and the govt won't let that happen. We really don't affect that many routes but it's just enough for us to be used as an "alternative" for the protection of the consumer against monopolies/price setting. Our only argument against would be that our product is so inferior that despite our low cost, we still don't get the traffic to be very profitable.
As such, this airline is stuck. There's no one to merge with. It can't be bought. And it doesn't have the right leadership/ownership to improve as the multiple base/Allegiant strategy won't work either. And the union, who I honestly think DOES try hard, isn't equipped with the right galvanizing/fortifying efforts to overcome the obvious disharmony among the pilot force. Last contract cycle, 70+% voted to be paid an hourly rate less than just about EVERY OTHER AIRLINE willfully (touting drop/swap/trade rules that are easily nullified by scheduling in a way that's not transparent to us). That, coupled with the obvious lackluster performance and customer service mantra we have means we can't retain pilots. The ONLY pilots who come here are cadets and ones who weren't offered a better alternative. And, as soon as they do get here, the often ARE offered and leave.
Every move seems like arranging deck chairs on the Titanic. I'll admit i'm scared sh/tless about giving up multiple years of seniority, but I'm beginning to think I don't have a choice. I'm not sure if it's admirable or stupid to hang on to the bitter end but I don't want to find out...
But, that would basically eliminate ULCCs from the market and the govt won't let that happen. We really don't affect that many routes but it's just enough for us to be used as an "alternative" for the protection of the consumer against monopolies/price setting. Our only argument against would be that our product is so inferior that despite our low cost, we still don't get the traffic to be very profitable.
As such, this airline is stuck. There's no one to merge with. It can't be bought. And it doesn't have the right leadership/ownership to improve as the multiple base/Allegiant strategy won't work either. And the union, who I honestly think DOES try hard, isn't equipped with the right galvanizing/fortifying efforts to overcome the obvious disharmony among the pilot force. Last contract cycle, 70+% voted to be paid an hourly rate less than just about EVERY OTHER AIRLINE willfully (touting drop/swap/trade rules that are easily nullified by scheduling in a way that's not transparent to us). That, coupled with the obvious lackluster performance and customer service mantra we have means we can't retain pilots. The ONLY pilots who come here are cadets and ones who weren't offered a better alternative. And, as soon as they do get here, the often ARE offered and leave.
Every move seems like arranging deck chairs on the Titanic. I'll admit i'm scared sh/tless about giving up multiple years of seniority, but I'm beginning to think I don't have a choice. I'm not sure if it's admirable or stupid to hang on to the bitter end but I don't want to find out...
Frontier has no physical assets. It owns nothing. Yes, a bunch of Airbus orders, and leased Airbuses. Lawyers and Finance types can make back-alley drug deals and Big-3 can get those orders and leases, if life or death was at stake. Frontier's only true employees are corporate, Pilots, FAs. So not sure what Big-3 gets in that regard either.
Frontier has no lucrative Europe routes or landing slots that Big-3 needs. It does not have 20 shiny new 787's or A350s that Big-3 would love to snatch.
In current form, Big-3 is not touching Frontier. Now, if Frontier goes into bankruptcy, (which nullifies union contracts and many other things), yes, Big-3 will toss them a life preserver, absolutely.
No matter what rumor inflight generates, no, nobody is buying Frontier.
12-18-2023, 11:08 AM
#28
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Dec 2018
Posts: 999
Originally Posted by dracir1
I actually used to think one of the Big 3 would buy us. It made sense from a #s and aircraft orders standpoint. All of the majors hire 2000 every 6-9 months - our entire seniority list could be absorbed and it wouldn't be much of a bump for them. And EVERY airline could use new 321neo's (even if they don't come for another 3-5 years after the engines are inspected/fixed).
But, that would basically eliminate ULCCs from the market and the govt won't let that happen. We really don't affect that many routes but it's just enough for us to be used as an "alternative" for the protection of the consumer against monopolies/price setting. Our only argument against would be that our product is so inferior that despite our low cost, we still don't get the traffic to be very profitable.
As such, this airline is stuck. There's no one to merge with. It can't be bought. And it doesn't have the right leadership/ownership to improve as the multiple base/Allegiant strategy won't work either. And the union, who I honestly think DOES try hard, isn't equipped with the right galvanizing/fortifying efforts to overcome the obvious disharmony among the pilot force. Last contract cycle, 70+% voted to be paid an hourly rate less than just about EVERY OTHER AIRLINE willfully (touting drop/swap/trade rules that are easily nullified by scheduling in a way that's not transparent to us). That, coupled with the obvious lackluster performance and customer service mantra we have means we can't retain pilots. The ONLY pilots who come here are cadets and ones who weren't offered a better alternative. And, as soon as they do get here, the often ARE offered and leave.
Every move seems like arranging deck chairs on the Titanic. I'll admit i'm scared sh/tless about giving up multiple years of seniority, but I'm beginning to think I don't have a choice. I'm not sure if it's admirable or stupid to hang on to the bitter end but I don't want to find out...
But, that would basically eliminate ULCCs from the market and the govt won't let that happen. We really don't affect that many routes but it's just enough for us to be used as an "alternative" for the protection of the consumer against monopolies/price setting. Our only argument against would be that our product is so inferior that despite our low cost, we still don't get the traffic to be very profitable.
As such, this airline is stuck. There's no one to merge with. It can't be bought. And it doesn't have the right leadership/ownership to improve as the multiple base/Allegiant strategy won't work either. And the union, who I honestly think DOES try hard, isn't equipped with the right galvanizing/fortifying efforts to overcome the obvious disharmony among the pilot force. Last contract cycle, 70+% voted to be paid an hourly rate less than just about EVERY OTHER AIRLINE willfully (touting drop/swap/trade rules that are easily nullified by scheduling in a way that's not transparent to us). That, coupled with the obvious lackluster performance and customer service mantra we have means we can't retain pilots. The ONLY pilots who come here are cadets and ones who weren't offered a better alternative. And, as soon as they do get here, the often ARE offered and leave.
Every move seems like arranging deck chairs on the Titanic. I'll admit i'm scared sh/tless about giving up multiple years of seniority, but I'm beginning to think I don't have a choice. I'm not sure if it's admirable or stupid to hang on to the bitter end but I don't want to find out...
The only regret I have for making the move is that I didn’t do it a year sooner, but didn’t because of the same fears. I’d already have over 20% of the seniority list below me. Now I only have about 10%.
That said, 8 months in and already have an upgrade award in base, and Thanksgiving, Christmas Eve, and Christmas Day off as an FO. I used to think that people who went to a legacy from F9 would just talk about how much better life is to justify their decision to leave. But, now that I’m finally on the other side I realize that it’s all true.
Believe me. I was a massive pro-frontier guys. If I was typing on here you better believe my lips were koolaid powered. I made spooldup look like a suicidal person looking over the edge of a skyscraper. But after 6 years at F9 and in both seats, I’ve come to realize that Stockholm syndrome and the “maybe/but if only” justification is real. If you live in a legacy domicile and won’t have to commute for long, if at all… The time to leave is now.
My wife stopped working shortly before I made the switch and went from the F9 left seat to the right seat of a legacy. My own paycut was around 200k/year. That doesn’t include the loss of my wife leaving a career job. Three kiddos at home too. Trust me, I know the fear and the first year pain. But it’s doable and in about 4 more months when my upgrade gets activated I’ll be making at least 300k while sitting on my butt at home on reserve without ever moving a muscle.
If you have any thoughts don’t delay. You’ll get through the first year pain too. Everyone does and nobody regrets it. It’s like getting over a breakup with a long term partner. Eventually you’ll feel just fine and just look back and laugh while wondering why you stayed in it for so long.
I won’t lie and admit that it stung a bit when I found out that they were reopening Chicago, but mostly it just made me mad and reaffirmed how QOL at F9 will always be all over the place. Especially after so many pilots already uprooted their families for their new domicile. It only solidified the belief in my decision to leave.
Now if you’ll excuse me, I have some blue koolaid to go drink (or whatever is in our “colour palette” these days 🙄 ).
Last edited by TOGALOCK; 12-18-2023 at 11:40 AM.
12-18-2023, 11:24 AM
#29
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Mar 2021
Posts: 1,110
Originally Posted by TOGALOCK
It’s like getting over a breakup with a long term partner. Eventually you’ll feel just fine and just look back and laugh while wondering why you stayed in it for so long.
I won’t lie and admit that it stung a bit when I found out that they were reopening Chicago, but mostly it just made me mad and reaffirmed how QOL at F9 will always be all over the place. Especially after so many pilots already uprooted their families for their new domicile. It only solidified the belief in my decision to leave.
I won’t lie and admit that it stung a bit when I found out that they were reopening Chicago, but mostly it just made me mad and reaffirmed how QOL at F9 will always be all over the place. Especially after so many pilots already uprooted their families for their new domicile. It only solidified the belief in my decision to leave.
12-18-2023, 11:28 AM
#30
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Feb 2014
Position: Lineholder
Posts: 1,356
Originally Posted by TOGALOCK
The only regret I have for making the move is that I didn’t do it a year sooner, but didn’t because of the same fears. I’d already have over 20% of the seniority list below me. Now I only have about 10%.
Thread
Thread Starter
Forum
Replies
Last Post
