dracir1

Toga was right in his answer to you but I'm glad you made this observation and posted as I have feeling you are not alone in this type of thinking. And, being THIS far behind yet again is exactly how we made the greatest gains in aviation history and were STILL in last. That very fact is what the union sold in their dog and pony rode show - "We're so far behind that we can't make up ALL the ground pay wise so let's keep our QoL items and make up the pay in the next contract."

The question is can we, or are we, once again, so far behind to do so?

A320NEO FO rates (321 slightly higher) at AA/UA/DL on their newest contract by year (starting at 1): 108.34, 166.60, 194.95, 199.67, 204.47, 209.67, 215.54, 220.51, 222.88, 225.91, 227.98, 230.10.

Since our 12 yr FO rate tops out at $179.26, our current 12 yr FO rate is lower than everyone else's 3rd yr FO rate. In other words, if you're a 12 yr FO at F9 right now and you left, got hired by AA/DL/UA in 2024, by the time the next F9 contract is finalized, you will be making $20/hr more than at F9 and have made most if not all of your money back from giving up 12 yrs of seniority.

Let's say you decide to upgrade and take 1st available upgade. And, lets assume you can upgrade at exactly the 3rd yr pay point (ie. upgrading exactly after 2 years on property). 3rd yr CA rates at F9 are 222.88. 12 yr rate is 270.07.

A320 NEO rates for CA at AA/UA/DL: 309.03, 311.46, 313.9, 316.45, 319.02, 321.57, 324.10, 326.64, 329.24, 331.69, 334.29, 336.89.

At 2 yr upgrade at F9, you would be making $91/hr less than upgrading at 3 yrs elsewhere (of which is certainly possible). Progressing to 12 yr pay (where you get no more raises until the next contract), you would be making $66.82 / hr LESS. That comes out to about $60k per year less. All the while during that time, the business philosophy of your airline would remain basically the same. You wouldn't have near as many grievances or hotel disputes. If you decided to move and needed to commute, you could reserve the jumpseat ahead of time and there are FAR MORE flight options on your own metal. You'd be getting more 401k contribution (both in percentage AND amount). You'd have the option of working in training as an FO and commuting company paid as an instructor (hotels too). You'd be earning more $ in per diem and accruing more weeks of vacation and at a faster rate. Your medical and LTD would be better AND cost you less. And, you'd also bring in the possibility of widebody FO - let's discuss that...

Right now, the AA/UA/DL FO 9 yr rate on all 787, all variants of 777, A350, A330 and 767-400 make more than a F9 12 yr CA. You could essentially be a CAREER FO at a legacy and make a considerable amount more than a CA at F9 right now.

Of course, this is the case if F9 doesn't get a pay raise which is certain to happen. The question is how much - rest assured, it won't be summer 2026 until that happens. And, is the ORIGINAL discussion - are we SO FAR BEHIND YET AGAIN to make up the difference.

We're all betting our career decision on that very question.

togaflaps

You forgot to mention profit sharing and how much that would move the needle. It's not uncommon to see 30k + 401k contributions on it.

spooldup

Yeah, We will have to see. One thing I did notice is the union proposed a 3yr contract length, which would put us more in line with the rest of the airlines, I hope that sticks, I made it clear in both of my phone surveys that I did NOT want to be 2-3 years behind the pay and be at 2023 rates when everyone else is making 2026 rates just to lose and be behind again.

wannabebusdrivr

Only 200h? Would you have been able to fly more if you wanted? I am in the Cadet program, and given the class date delays, I am considering applying other places. I want good QOL, but I don't want to just sit home and not fly, or that will just delay my ability to be eligible to apply to a major. I need PHL, or EWR, so besides F9, my other options are PDT, GoJet, PSA, or maybe Republic... But I would really love to stick to F9.

I wont be eligible for a class date until April/May, so maybe class date delays will improve by then, but my concern for the amount of flying on reserve still apply...

Any thoughts are appreciated.

Stayontarget

As a reserve pilot you can fly as much as you want on your days off as long as it’s within 117. Line holder is similar with added drop/swap capability. All open trips are first come first serve in base with a 24hr lock outside of base except for premium trips. Most new kids pick up every trip they can get their hands on since they have the same goals as you. As such open time can be somewhat cutthroat as you need to be lightning fast to pick up open trips.

Spool doesnt like working much so their goals were achieved as reservists. Also, Frontier is a major. Good luck with your decision.

Stayontarget

That’s was a mess to read through. Why didn’t you just give the example for Spool at 2nd yr now with the contract applying in 2026 vs starting a legacy now for an apples to apples comparison. It would have saved you a lot of typing.

Moreover, why are you trying to convince him to leave when he clearly gave his reasons not to? Or are you justifying it for yourself?

Retard

Just to keep it accurate and in context:

delta 321CA rates: 331, 333, 336, 339, 342, 344,
delta 321FO rates: 116, 178, 209, 214, 219, 225,
these rates are as of 1/1/24 and 321 neo rates are about 10/hour more

this doesn’t include profit sharing or the 2% more of 401k contributions. I’m upgrading at Delta after 1.5 years on the 320 and will make $65+ per hour more than any F9 CA makes. When you include all of the QOL and schedule flexibility we get I have no idea why anyone would stay at F9. I was at F9 for 2 years and its light speeds better here in every aspect. We have the same ability to drop/swap and get an automatic sick bank of 100hr+ every year. It’s a crazy difference when you consider the overall package.

hercretired

No it wasn't. His post was excellent

Stayontarget

1. I didn’t need a lesson on rates. I read the comparison and can count.

2. His first example is a bit misleading. Yes you COULD make more by yr 3 with those FO rates. I could get Legacy total compensation to eclipse F9 comp by then if I include 30k PS per year tax free. Otherwise not so much.

3. Second and third example. Problem #1 You are comparing a known quantity with an unknown quantity. All we can do is best guess on the size of the compensation and time for implementation. 2026 could be late/early. Pay rates could be better/worse. Problem #2 These are blanket scenarios. Each person will have a different goal based on age, base, family, airline, etc…You can’t make any kind of accurate prediction based on these posts unless you run the numbers for yourself.

hercretired

Not sure he was directing his very excellent post, to you.

Was his post a reply, to you?

Thanks