No vote for I until the long term and health benefits are on par with others…including snap up every year past the contract term since theyll love to dicker around with us in the future. Also needs to be some serious financial guardrails and work rules if they want to start adding reroutes to our schedules.

welp you’ll be without a contract for years to come lol, ALPA gave there original proposal and has already negotiated down from it to something less. Do you really think there is any world where it goes back up????

I too enjoy a good fantasy. Except for me it's usually Natalie Portman and Mila Kunis at the same time.

^^^^^^^^^
yup +1

Hedge Fund versus Private Equity Fund

Akin to asking if a tomato is a fruit or a vegetable. (Tomatos have seeds on the inside). Or if the V-22 Osprey is an airplane or a helicopter.

For our line pilot operational point of view, "what Indigo is" does not matter. A hedge fund buys stocks, to reap returns. A PE firm buys or invests in companies themselves, to reap returns. "Turn around plays" are the targets of PE firms.

It does not matter. "Indigo Partners is an investment group" is the correct statement.

Mine usually include everyone’s den fav ES and a donkey, but different strokes for different folks.

I do…im willingly to bet they want this thing signed before the next big openers come out and drive our averages up. Loss of license and ltd to 65 are literally standard everywhere else, no reason those shouldn’t be included

Do you think delta is just going to open negotiations next year and have a TA signed in a year?

I think he’s simply saying the numbers that are going to be thrown around soon are going to make it even harder on management to continue low balling after DAL openers start leaking. For example at UAL our 2027 321 12 year rate is $417.07 and our 737 Max 9/-900 are $402.01 plus we get 18% B fund on top. Let’s say openers are a modest 10% raise. Over $450/hr. If y’all don’t have a new contract in place when numbers like that come out it’s gonna be hard to sell falling even further behind.

Best of luck to y’all.

this is fake news. Big-3 sucks, proven by the high numbers of legacy applicants in F9 classes.

why would I give up turns?

Delta CJO ? thanks but not "starting over"

QOL is everything and at Frontier we out-QOL everyone. Barry says so.

He even has some funny money "creative accounting" slides where Frontier pilots out-earn Big-3 pilots.

:rolleyes:

exactly….Between that, losing experienced crew to big 4 this fall, the overhanging tailstrike risk, and already terrible on-time performance… It would behoove them to finish it sooner than later. Then again with this c suite team, who knows.

this made me giggle

Yeah unfortunately I don't think the company is feeling any pressure from this at all.

The average airline contract negotiated under the RLA is 3+ year process? So realistically Delta is at a minimum of 3 years from a new contract, more likely 4. That just isn't going to motivate management to sign a deal before we get a chance to see what Delta is cooking up.

We are just stuck in a bad spot contract cycle wise. I think our best bet long term is to hope the company caves to the unions ask of this only being a 3 year deal.

But also how much more can delta ask for other than modest raises and a few things here and there? Could be the easiest negotiation ever as long as their company isn't looking for concessions (which I doubt).

We’d better hope not. Modest contract increases at the legacies in the face of more substantial contract increases at the ULCCs would literally be the very cost convergence that the likes of Kirby et al. are bragging will kill off the ULCCs (us).

Contract Talks still not resolved

FedEx: since 2021. federal mediation in 2022

ATI: since 2020

Allegiant: since 2021 or 2022 (?)

with an average time of 4+ years to get a contract, 2028 is looking bright !

There are many things to fix in the Delta contract. But I don’t think it will take 3-4 years like someone else said. Last round took a bit longer due to coming out of Covid. Once negotiations started with mediation, it took about 1yr for a AIP.

Alpa is starting to do polls this month and we are still 1yr and 5 months before our contract is “expired”. It wouldn’t suprise me if they start early negotiations in January (like previous contracts).

I will also expect some modest pay increases. If it pases beyond Dec 2026, retro pay is also on the table.

"retro pay is on the table"

of course it is

first time poster ?

ok so our union calls for a status meeting. Hypothetically it goes exactly the way our union want it to go. What happens then? are we released after a cooling off period? Do we get the proposed contract or can we ask for more?

Before any one says "XYZ is not happening " that is not what I am asking. I want to know what the maximum potential upside is.

The goal is to get an actual member(s) of the NMB to take a look at what has been happening during mediated negotiations, and push the parties forward. This is also the first step in moving beyond mediation to proffer of binding arbitration. After the proffer, and assuming that one of the parties refuses, comes the 30 day cooling off period.

This is an ALPA doc that details the steps in Section 6. It doesn't call it a "status conference", but we are at the top of p.4

https://crewroom.alpa.org/alafa/Port...06%20Final.pdf

To add to this... it looks quick, but the part of going to proffer is probably the longest and hardest thing to happen.

"will be quick"

FedEx has been working on a contract for ???? since 2021. The contract being worked out is from 2015

meanwhile, nobody ships "next day letters" (heard of a PDF file?) or "mailing tubes" with laminated presentations inside them

awesome stuff

Right. I hate to say it but I predict after our status meeting we get put on ice.

At least with FedEx there was a TA that got voted down. I can see us being more like ATI currently or Atlas during their last negotiation. Long hard fight. Frankie and Barry may be dead by then.

Fedex got greedy…. What was offered wasn’t a bad deal but they got high and mighty because of the Covid era when they were running full speed ahead making money hand over fist. Sucks, but it is what it is. Nothing we can do about our situation but sit back and hold strong. But yeah Franke will probably be dead and good old Barry might not make it given his lack of healthy lifestyle….

what does Drake have to do with this?

Fedex is still making good money.

Alaska will have new pay rates by the end of October, maybe that will help you? $400 an hour I hear, I don’t see you getting close but maybe.

Spirits new rates will be out by Oct 1. Company coming after $100 million from the contract but that won’t help your cause. I’m betting spirit rates come back to what you’re making, wata ya think? That would be very convenient for Mr. Frankie.

Hey any word on the “healthy food” option, did you guys come to an agreement yet for that in your new contract? I’m pretty excited about eating catering while I’m flying, good stuff!

So...

You're surmising that a company that declared bankruptcy TWICE in the same year offering new rates to their pilots will hurt us? Is NK really a viable comparative business right now?

From what the Allegiant NC is telling people, our mediator is fully believes that Allegiant “peer” airlines are spirit and frontier and Suncountry. We fight like crazy to say we’re different from you all and that we are more like Alaska and Delta in terms of historical margins but it is an uphill battle and tough sell to the mediator.

Spirit going into bankruptcy twice has absolutely hurt us at the negotiating table with the mediators we’ve had - including the current one.

I agree, Spirit is not our peer. 1) They were mismanaged during Covid by piling on debt (tip of the hat to Ted Christy) and 2) they had the unfortunate luck of being severely impacted by P&W issues. Pilot pay had nothing to do with Spirit’s demise. Spirit shouldn’t be used by any company to negotiate pay and I’m sure our NC is aware.

then who do you believe is F9’s peer?

I ask because at G4 we run into this problem all the time. The data/stats/info all says that we are closest to SY, F9, MX, NK which is obviously not who we wanna compare ourselves to. We argue that 10 year margins, etc we are DL and AK but that does not seem to resonate with our mediator.

I am genuinely curious who y’all consider to be your peers?

Spirit is your Peer. They may have been mismanaged and had bad luck but they are still your peer. Also, last I checked their CBA is still better than F9s...... We'll see what happens after October!

To say Spirit is not our peer is disingenuous. F9 has been emulating Spirit ever since we rebranded as a ULCC. You can deny it all you want , but I like most people lose respect for anyone who takes such a ridiculous position. It's like staking you reputation on the fact that a 1992 Chevy Camaro is a completely different car than a 1992 Pontiac Firebird.

Right now this is a double edge sword. Yes we are very similar but our direct competitor is going out of business. We could get amazing traction with the loss of a direct competitor ,but we need to move a better contract would reduce so many problems around here from freeing up the training department, reducing training costs (75K per new hire) increase real flying experience across the pilot group. All of which make for a smoother running more profitable airline.

We can all pay rock bottom prices for just about anything. But do we?

If F9 want's to survive we need to rise above garbage tier

Then you can take umbrage w/ me because it's just not true.

First, from a common sense standpoint, the notion that a non-viable company (in ANY industry) is one worthy of comparison for wage bargaining purposes is asinine. If NK ever was our peer, that ended a while ago. If AA were to declare bankruptcy twice in the same year (and the company furloughing and looking to offer further concessions) with an industry posting double digit margins, do you think the UA pilots would be comparing their company to them at the bargaining table? C'mon now bro, this is so ridiculous, it shouldn't even have to be mentioned.

Second, NK and F9 are similar in that they are both ULCCs and while you are correct in that we have been trying to emulate their product for a while, peer groups share way more than bag policy and seating arrangements. NK's network and product are significantly different. TBH, NK is a better model - they are just the victims of bad timing and shoddy aircraft construction. NK has wifi, big front seats and more frequency/redundancy in their network. Their app is better. About the only area F9 exceeds NK is in the rewards and CC programs (and even that is debatable). In almost all other areas, F9 is a step below NK in terms of product. F9 and NK are essentially 2 different airlines that offer similar priced items but are no more similar than SWA and JB (and I'd dare you to try and convince a SWA pilot that JB is their peer). In fact, NK is probably closer to JB than F9.

It would be safe to say that F9 really doesn't have a peer group given the unique LACK of services and product.

I honestly don't come here to argue with you.

I stand by what I said, and not to be mean but I usually do skip over your comments for reasons previously stated.

Then who is your peer or comparator airline? Our union leadership at G4 have explained this that when the mediator asks who the union believes are the comparator airlines and why, that you better have an answer.

so Dracir, who would you say F9’s peers/comparators are and why? I’m genuinely curious because I think you’re smart and informed and might have some good reasoning that we could use over here at Allegiant because we are getting pidgeon holed into NK, F9, MX, and SY when we obviously compared to AK, WN, DL, et al the legacies.

The answer for f9 is our peer group is anyone flying a 320/321 airbus in the USA. The company then reverts to the lowest paid. UAL was one at one point. We need UAL bankruptcy rates. Doesn’t matter who that is at the time. They have lots of reasons. First class, international, ect… the rebuttal argument is we’re giving you an additional 50 seats to offset first class and we go international. Now whether or not this resonates with the nmb kind of depends on the composition of the nmb bod.

So your peers are DL, UA, AA, AK, SY, NK, G4, B6, WN, and XP? If every airline is your peer then no airline is your peer…

I can tell you that this answer has not resonated with any of the three mediators we’ve had during mediation. And it doesn’t seem to resonate with the NMB because we cannot even get a status meeting.

If I come off snarky it’s because I am beyond frustrated with how we keep getting boxed in by Allegiant has a “unique business model” sales job that management has sold to the mediator.

So you have 240 seats on your ac? If not it’s not the same argument/answer. Your also teamsters correct? I found teamsters to have some issues making aviation related arguments in the past for various reasons. For starters they don’t have common language so you spend a bunch of time defending language that common Alpa language has addressed already over the years in arbitration already.