So what this next CBA going to look like
 

Looking over the last few company communications I noticed a subtle tinge of desperation. The effort that was put in to selling a paycut with associated cuts in QOL had a whiff of failed gas lighting and the associated damage control that comes with it.

With that in mind I think of our current contract. Given the time it should have been glorious. The cards were all stacked in our favor, but we all know by now the short comings of our contract as we worry about how much collateral we will need to give up to plug up the holes. As I contemplate how we got here my mind goes back to the impenetrable facade management was putting up all the way to the very end. Our management went from an immovable object blocking any advancement to a rocket sled dragging the NC along pulling to have a contract done with a quickness that left many of the finer details on the cutting room floor.

This is the danger of negotiating with uninterested parties. They grind down your expectations with years of protracted jawboning only to end up with little to no progress. Eventually when the interested party is sufficiently worn down and the external conditions are advantageous. Suddenly they are willing to negotiate. After years of pressure to preform, stalled negotiations and the realistic questions the NC would ask them selves “what could I do to make this work?” When the uninterested party finally shows up offering relatively small gains all the forces are on Go now, Move fast. Which was the intention. This is how we have the present contract. It is a function of grinding down the Pilot Group and the NC/MEC as long as possible hoping they will start negotiating with them self's bringing down expectations.

Luckily in our case there is a system to prevent this. We the pilot group get to vote on weather this contract is accepted or not.

With this in mind. I ask my fellow Frontier Pilots what do you want to see in this next contract. This is your chance to shape the next contract, to make sure the provisions that matter to you don't fall to the cutting room floor. If you work at other airlines and would like to share you Ideas on this we are always interested in the wisdom of others. Please distinguish yourself from Frontier Pilots.

We can never get everybody on the same page ,but my hope is to reach a relative consensus so we all know what a new CBA must have ,Should have ,and some places in the CBA that we shouldn't push as hard on.

For brevity
1. State what the problem is
Due to the many delays we spend countless hours waiting around the airport for
no compensation
2. what you propose to fix it
We should be paid at least minimum wage for the entire duty period
3. Make an abbreviation (+ for and – against)
+duty pay

If your a lurker but work at F9 you don't need to propose any Ideas you can just state your preferences
-Duty pay, +delay pay, +indsty STD comp, +am/Pm schedule -70hr Min cdt

Just say what you want then we can debate why X is better than Y

pretty simple must items.
-standard pay
-5:15 daily guarantee. (No more fake 10 hour 3 days… trips will become efficient again)
-LTD paid for the entire course of a career (standard now among carriers)
- 17% DC that atleast steps up to 18%
- perdiem/international/redeye/overide
-reserve getting X amount guaranteed days off vs what we have no.
- reassign pay in line with everyone else.

there will have to be some strategizing by ALPA to know how other airlines have found holes in our peers contracts and used it against them.

I think the language used in our last contract was weak and for the contract needs to be much more direct and clear…. IE - no room for interpretation of vague examples.

One other thing people should think about is this contract will last us to around 2030-2031. We will have 284 aircraft at that point. We will be 43% larger than we are now. I think as we grow the reassign stuff will become a bigger deal and they will utilize it far more. Having language in there that atleast gives us a large pay increase if they do that to us will be vital.

I'm sure I’m missing stuff…. Are we underpaid? Of course, but we aren’t desperate like last time and I think the pilot group will vote down anything that does not have those items in there. I really hope our MEC does not put a subpar contract to vote because it’s the last thing we need as a collective.

1:1.75 Duty Rig, min 5:15 credit/day (not duty and including training), don’t want extension override (bad idea from a safety standpoint), Own Occupation LTD to 65, 18% DC, keep current vacation rules and pay credit, 13 days off for reserves in 31 day month, industry standard A320/321 rates. Surveys I’m sure reflect this sentiment for most.

^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
all of the above
we will have to be released before we get even close to any of the above….

and with the amount of “all about me sky wh$res” at this place……
fat chance

Well, I hate to say that you’re almost certainly correct. I’ve first hand talked to guys on the way out in a few years that have told me directly to my face if it benefits them then they are taking it sorry about your luck. This isn’t a one person one off comment.

The issue is I understand they want to make the most money before retirement. I understand they may have been in the lost decade, but that doesn’t mean you screw over your peers for a quick buck… As we are seeing now there are consequences for skipping over what seemed like minor things previously only to realize that the contract life is most definitely going to be longer then just 5 years.

We are now 2 years into negotiations and on our second mediator, what do we have to show for that? Last I checked absolutely nothing. The industry has spoken, we are not less than our peers… Last time I verified we take the same check ride, follow the same regulations, and are flying the same f’n plane. Albeit with less resources. So when you think about that and have some serious reflection with where we are at is it worth screwing over your peers for a minimum gain just to make a few bucks before you retire or move on to another airline? It hurts the entire industry to be at the bottom when negotiations come around for the other guys.

I haven’t even mentioned the scope issues the company is trying to slide into our new CBA. It’s not just rates we should be concerned about. There are many issues we are all aware of but pay is just one aspect. As many have mentioned before in other threads we could be paid $1000 an hour with zero scope or work rule protections and that $1000 isn’t worth it.

One thing I think people fail to realize is the company claims they can’t afford to do these things and all the other nonsense they say. One thing I’d ask you to keep in mind is that we could take the crappy offer of what they want but then how would you feel if the day after it’s signed they decided to change the model? They are in full control of that. They claim to already be getting and retrofitting big front seats… what’s next WiFi, in seat power, less seats for more spacing, cargo? The list can go on and on of what they could decide to do after we hypothetically sign the dotted line. My point is they will figure out how to manipulate the numbers to continue to survive if we took some subpar offer when in reality they could pay us and give better improvements to our QOL and still make those changes to see what they want to see. We can’t just sell ourselves short because they tell us well we can’t do that. Excuse me but WTF you want to align with the industry in the crappy areas but can’t align overall this isn’t a pick and choose scenario that’s why we have pattern bargaining…

Anyways just something to think about perspective sometimes kills ya before you begin don’t sell yourself short and screw others in the process.

I’ll be gone b4 any new turd CBA ……
however
ill fly the required minimum and enjoy ALL of my vac days and retire with ZERO sick time

I think too many people assume indigo wants to run an airline. That private equity firm saw a path where they can dump money in and churn profit out. The airline just keeps that profit engine churning and pays for the investment. Anything that makes operating the airline cost more money, they will never go for. Other airlines operate to make money by being the best airline. F9 operates by existing on the hairy edge of being the worst airline without being shut down by the Feds. That mission statement is not conducive to a meaningful new contract

It does seem that way. As the operation grows they will see diminishing returns. It looks like we are past that break even point hens the all summer COLAs. I am interested to see what happens in the fall. The new hire pipe line will slow if they start to furlough. Suddenly they may not be able to replace attrition.

They are always going to say they don't have enough money. My first jet job I make as much as the FA. I remember the ground instructor telling us that we had to work a few years to pay off our training costs. Four years later as a captain we were in cruse and the FO burst out "MAN I'm only making $60,000 this year" (first year FO) I was only making 75k.

If you want to know where we are in the pecking order head over to APC's pages for the regionals. I was shocked at what those top end pay rates are these days. It really puts our pay rates in context of the old saying " you get paid not what your worth, but what you demand."

As for me
Pay- I won't accpt less than other an Avg of the big 3 +SW with the caveat of it doesn't have to happen all at once so long as the % increase keeps going up in perpetuity and stops at the Avg# ie 20%now and 10%/year until we reach an Avg if the next contract cycle comes around and suddenly we are 40% lower again in 4 years we are even. It takes pay off the negotiating table for the most part.

Am/PM
Am/PM schedules won't kill the 10 hr 3 day but at least we can go to sleep at the same time every night

Red-eye override =15% 321 over ride 10-20 %

Duty pay I want to be paid at least Minimum Wage for every hour on duty and until I get to the Hotel on trips - Far to many times we time out and procced to sit around the airport for 3+ hrs and we should be compensated for that.

Red eye lines/ Special use airport lines. X% override Red eye RSV = extra days off

The scope clauses are all important

Min Day 5 hrs or more

LDT for pilots , 18% DC, Improve Benefits,

Finally some improvement in work rules for Reserves could be more days off

Uh. What ?

If we stick to demanding an industry standard contract, which I believe we should, it will force indigo to either run an airline or dump their position and put a for sale sign on the front lawn. Either one sounds fine to me.

Indigo isn’t dumping anything. They’re making $15 million in profit on each sale-leaseback, with 180 aircraft still on order. That’s $2.7 billion in pure profit just from fleet transactions. All they have to do is ride out the current domestic oversupply, and they’ll be back to printing money.

Bob !!! there you are We have been waiting for you to weigh in on this. What Does a new F9 CBA look like to Bob Sacamano? Before you answer I got to ask Do you work at F9?

An industry standard contract would wreck that profit margin. Not only would the contract itself chew up their sale-leaseback profit, they would have to change the way the airline operates to pay for the contract. Frontier was designed to just barely function well enough to pay those leases and not get shut down by the feds.

The way they are printing money right now gives them flexibility to bail. A new industry contract hand cuffs them to the airline. It would require a new CEO, new management and a new vision without the ability to predict profits out into the future the way they can now.

^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
so keep picking up any and all available open time and definitely WORK on your days off and vacation 🤪

Not our problem. The C-suite needs to figure out how to pay market rates for an Airbus pilot, just as they pay market rates for fuel, aircraft parts, food, and even office supplies.

100% agreed, if you cant pay your employees industry standard rates just raise the ticket prices

I've heard this a ton, but I don't get it. How does the Sale-Leaseback make a profit? Please explain to like I am 5... :)

That is their point

No.

Biffle has publicly said that with new labor contracts in place in 2026 Frontier will still maintain a 40% cost advantage over the competition. Frontier will likely raise ticket prices by $5 to $10 dollars to pass the cost along to the customer. Exactly like what every other airline has already done. We are going to be fine. Just like last time.

When Indigo placed the massive 400 aircraft order back some years ago they negotiated a significant discount on the planes. When we take possession of a new aircraft we immediately sell it to a leasing company and then lease the aircraft from them for 8 to 12 years. When we sell it to the leasing company they pay market rate for the aircraft which is maybe 10 Million more than our negotiated discount price from Airbus. Frontier then pockets the $10 M and we begin making monthly lease payments on the aircraft

On a very basic level, all this tracks. I guess what I really don't understand is the total effect of recent policy change and how that will affect us going forward. (i.e. 100% Bonus Depreciation, ~30% Tariff hikes, etc.).

From 2024 10K:

Gains on Sale-Leaseback Transactions
The Company enters into sale-leaseback transactions for its aircraft and spare engine assets, whereby the Company sells one or more aircraft or aircraft engine assets to a third-party and simultaneously enters into an operating lease for a right to use such assets for a fixed period of time. Gains on sale-leaseback transactions are recognized in the period in which title to the asset transfers to the buyer-lessor and the lease commences, as a component of other operating expenses within the Company's consolidated statements of operations. Gains on sale-leaseback transactions are calculated as the excess of the sale price of the set over its carrying value. The carrying value of the assets sold will generally include the price paid for the asset, net of the amount of cash or the fair value of non-cash credits and incentives received from equipment and component manufacturers and any liquidated damages received from the manufacturer, the costs associated with delivery of the asset including any taxes or tariffs, financing costs capitalized in connection with the construction of the asset, capitalized maintenance and other improvements, and accumulated depreciation. Gains on sale-leaseback transactions may also be adjusted if it is determined that the terms of the sale transaction or the lease agreement are at a price other than fair value.

We won’t ever be able to see the exact details because we aren’t the ones at the table reading each aircraft’s contract. Barry mentioned the tariffs won’t effect us during the Q1 earnings call but he wasn’t clear. Is that because we won’t take an order if it is tariffed? Is it because the leasing company is based in Ireland and are they technically taking delivery? Does the leasing company have to eat the tariff?

True but if he was planning on 285M for a new contract over 5 years vs 2B he is delusional.

Have you seen how many premiums there are each weekend? Have you seen the amount of premiums that go unfilled? Have you seen the cancellation rate? While not all are, many are flying the contract.

Lol. Yeah.

He's not delusional. It's their lame attempt at negotiating. That's all. Last round the company proposed a 12th year captain rate of $200/ hour. We eventually settled on $270. Expect a similar result this time

I won’t work a minute beyond what I’m awarded which is minimum guarantee. I’m not doing the company any favors beyond what I’m paid to do. I would love an industry standard contract like anyone else. Accepting reality doesn’t make me a company man.

i’m still somewhat new around to these parts but I hear people here say often how they hope someone like delta or UA will just buy us. But when we don’t own any of our gates, or any of our ground and gate staff, or any of our planes…what exactly is there to buy? A pilot and FA group? A single hangar at DEN? A HQ building off of Peña with the “R” on the sign burnt out?

There’s nothing of interest or value

Hate to say it but totally agree.

Speak for yourself. I’m a catch and I’m not going to be the one who let myself get away.

First of all, the Gov't is unlikely to allow any such purchase. I would love if United bought Frontier and I got to be merged into their seniority system with my relative seniority. But that's extremely unlikely to happen. A big expensive airline isn't going to be able to buy a discount airline.

Any merger is likely to be between us and another discount airline not a legacy.

We have some value as the lease holder of 150 aircraft and an operating certificate. It's really hard to start an airline and get aircraft orders. There's currently a 6 or 7 year wait list to get a new Airbus. So while we might not seem like we have much value in hard assets, we have a lots of value as an up and running airline with a very desirable order book and operating certificate. Still, no one is buying us, just saying. I believe Frontier will remain independent for the foreseeable future.

upvote this , 100!

ticket prices have to go up, period, I mean everything else went up in prices in the past few years, some stuff quiet a lot

If Frontier raises prices, it’s not just the tickets that go up. People won’t pay if they know the only reason it’s more expensive is due to a new pilot contract. What we get paid now is way more than many of our pax.

Frontier will have to become not crappy in order to maintain their customers and I don’t think they are too excited to do that. Being not crappy costs money.

Once again, not our problem.

you have a very generous view of the knowledge of the traveling public, particularly Frontier customers. In my experience, most regular people only have a vague sense of the mechanics of this industry and profession, let alone insight into what pilots are paid.

Do you really think the average Frontier customer would have a representative sense of historical ticket prices, and correlate that info with news pieces in an unfamiliar industry about a new Frontier pilot contract when booking their next trip?

Most people won't notice or care, but if the tickets go up too much they may as well fly basic on AA/DL/UA on a bigger/more reliable network with inflight wifi and a free soda.

I actually think being crappy costs us *a lot* of money...

I agree with this. There are a lot of people that need wifi when they travel. My wife works in venture capital and she lives on email. No way she would ever fly an airline that didn't have internet on a flight longer than an hour. Same with first class. She's always in first if its available because she pulls out the laptop and she's in her email the entire flight.

A lot of people that might fly on Frontier, Spirit etc don't because they lack a product that they want. The problem is the cost that it takes to get there. Even United is spending money to remove Polaris seats for the new Polaris Studio because people will pay for the upgraded experience. Its pretty crazy in my opinion but the 787s will have over 60 of these on each plane. A Polaris seat from SFO to Tokyo is about $8k and these things sell out.

I can't imagine that Frontier can't add some first class or premium seats and get more revenue that way.

Thats generally the consensus that ****es most Frontier pilots off. We know we would be able to retain and get more customers if our management would only invest in our passengers. Yet here we are.

So I think we all come to the same consensus no matter how we phrase it.

We should have an amazing industry standard contract.

How management deals with it? Not our problem. That is what THEY get paid for.

75% of the time when someone tells me about an upcoming trip they have planned and I ask which airline they are flying on, they don't even know. People literally don't even know which airline they are flying on half the time. When we secure our new contract, 99.99% of our customers won't know about it.

The thing is, every other airline has had their costs go up too. We have a huge cost advantage and we will retain a huge cost advantage even after we sign a new contract. The ULCC business model has always been to be able to undercut the competition by at least 40%. We still still be able to do that.