I’ve done the math on the monthly guarantee math. We don’t talk about it because it doesn’t matter. We are paid by the hour. You’re confused if you think we’re talking about MMG. When we do more work more red eye flying more holiday and weekend flying with more passengers for less compensation per hourly rate but work more block hours than the average legacy pilot.


We deserve a lot more. They know it. They pay less because you accept less. Equal hourly rate is still a discount and still a no from me.

We want an equitable pay raise for all the stuff w have to deal with.


if you want to work for less the regionals are always taking cheap labor with limited rights. But I thought this was a major airline paying big boy pilot wages not some crappy regional carrier flying larger metal paying less than republic or endeavor after their incentives.

our hourly rate for our level of risk is crap.

tons of regional pilots make 140 an hour after 1000 hours of time in 121. In the mean time our company is trying offer us less than that to operate ate an airbus with 2-3 times the number of passengers.

let them go out of business if they can’t afford to pay us what we are worth. But pay me for the work I produce. Biffle gets higher compensation for the size of this airline compared to the legacies. We should get higher compensation too. We have more crap we have to deal with including smoothing over their failed operations.

This tirade makes dracir look reasonable. Guarantee doesn’t matter (even though it effects ltd directly) and the company offered less than $140 on the pay rate? The rest is mostly rant mixed in with some emotion.

While I agree with the sentiment, let’s look at a few things. Is someone holding you hostage here? Are you unable to apply to legacy carriers? (Devils advocate) I get it I’m in the trenches with you it’s frustrating to see my buddies absolutely killing it meanwhile I’m so far behind them and they hardly work. (Not the case for all of them but some of them)

Let’s also not forget this company doesn’t give two flying F’s about you or I. We are majority owned by an investment group. We serve one purpose and that’s for them to make money not to pay us what the other carriers pay. It’s a hard reality to understand and accept. But some people here have stayed for one reason or another. Does that mean we should be paid like our peers well I guess that’s something you can answer on your own. I know how I feel about it, but BB doesn’t care about my feelings he cares about the bottom line. Which is partly why we are in the position we currently are in. There is only so much cutting you can pull off before it hurts you/us.

I’m not the one running the business so I don’t call the shots but from an outsider looking into management, why are we cutting from the bottom without growing the top? What’s left to cut in an economic downturn? NOTHING! So where do they turn to? The pilot group that’s the one thing left to cut if we really hit hard times. They’ve been so focused on cheap let’s get to the cheapest model possible that they have forgotten to grow the top because ultimately price is king right?! Wrong, very wrong. If they had a semi care about our customer service and not stranding people for multiple days or a week because of their inability to recover we could hypothetically dominate. Three things are true—Customer service, reliability, and frequency will win over being the fastest to the bottom of cheap. Southwest once had this perfected. They are in a strange position right now but that’s also partially because they have the HIGHEST paying NB flying and need to figure out how to cover those costs. Businesses evolve they have to to stay in business. The market has shown the model isn’t a winning formula which is why the big three have basic economy they evolved to the ULCCs dominating years ago. My point is if we don’t evolve soon and rather quickly we could be so far behind the curve it could be detrimental.

I know it’s out of frustration that you say let them go out of business and pay me what I’m worth but you and I both know in this environment that’s probably the last thing you want right now. The rate of a bus pilot has been spoken for my view on this is pay up but careful what you ask for because that could mean the beginning of the end. If you’re cool with that then keep on keeping on with your rhetoric but ultimately temper those expectations we all know who we work for.

Way too much common sense in this post for APC.

It was a rhetorical question to stimulate a conversation, not an emotional tirade, and the answer is yes. The negotiators could simply go down to the company legacy ask for guarantee in exchange for going back to legacy rates. The cost is roughly the same on a balance sheet, in the Proposal, in Ltd coverage dollars, and and and. It’s the same cost.

bob you have like a year left you’re just bitter you’re not going to see the payout. Pipe down lol

But is it wrong…..

No it’s pretty spot on for the most part. We aren’t large enough to bargain for the latest and greatest we get what the legacies work for minus 5% because we’re smaller and a ULCC. That’s what you’re getting at with “who we work for” I think. Look at where we fell before everyone’s last round.. approximately within 5%, that’s where we should land again. Much less and I’ll vote no.

As far as “the company can’t afford it” line I keep hearing.. that’s what they said last time. Are you aware of our profits before and after our last CBA?

2016: +200M
2017: +162M
2018: +80M
2019: CBA ratified +251M

Strange how they just couldn’t pay and the year we get a CBA we make $251M and BB said “I thought it would be more”. He’s got 90% of us right where he wants us, wake up and have some respect for yourselves. I don’t care what Bob thinks, we have hundreds of lives in our hands and we do a job that is HIGHLY skilled. We get paid, or we vote no. It’s simple.

My man, are you aware that it is currently the year 2025, and that we have run annual losses each year since 2019, where you conveniently ended your analysis?

hindsight is so five years ago

Let’s not forget about medical and benefits.
Irregardless of hourly rate, if they don’t step up for ltd, medical, retirement,loss of license, travel, it’s a solid no on my end.

I agree, the “who we work for” comment is exactly that. That’s one of the things I’ve point out to many guys before all the new contracts were signed. We were only a few dollars per hour away from Delta and American can’t remember United’s but I’m sure it wasn’t much different. I also feel the same way much less and it’s already a NO from me. There are certain things that have to happen for it to be a yes and that’s just one. No one is talking about our insurance premiums going up a minimum of 12% next year and the companies reasoning behind it. But we have no hard evidence to support the claims they made. Especially when the union puts out an email detailing exactly how much it’s gone up over the past three years. LTD premium going up 31% for captains, what a joke. FOs think that affects them now but when I’ve explained that’s a Captian thing they are like oh I’m not worried about it then. You should be, so do you not want to sit in the left seat one day?

While I agree the company played games last round and magically they made a huge profit we just don’t know what it is going to be this time around. They could decide to change rapidly after we sign a new contract that is far below where it should be to make the difference up. Makes you wonder if they are slow rolling this and showing “losses” to make it seem like well we really can’t afford to do this. It’s anyone’s guess as to what is going on. All I can say is get your affairs in order because it’s shaping up to be a long fight. Everyone forgets how airline pilots used to be paid by the amount of seats they flew, I.e. why wide body pilots got paid an extreme amount. We currently fly a wide body amount of people so yes we have more responsibility and more at risk and that’s not even mentioning the fact of if something goes wrong and you have to make the decision to evacuate the plane you’re now in charge of properly maintaining a safe execution of more people getting off our crammed planes. I don’t know at the end of the day I know what I want and if it’s not a reality it’s a NO and then if it becomes so bad that there’s no end in sight I’m out.

It has gone back to that... Everyone else's contract has their 319-321N in separate pay categories for this reason. Right now, a 321N hourly pays the same as their 75 smaller 76 hourly. Oh yeah, we do carry more pax than 90% of their fleet btw.

While you’re correct about this, let’s not forget to mention COVID. That screwed a lot of things up and it’s really never been the same for us since then.

Someone gets it.

my point was they said they can’t afford it and lo and behold they could. You’re buying what they’re selling and you shouldn’t.

also you’re wrong, we made 85M net profit last year

And actually a very small profit in 2024 until we took a self imposed valuation allowance hit

So you’re saying that in 3 of the last 6 years, the company made meager profits (primarily due to sale leasebacks) on our current contract.

Go ahead and explain how they’re gonna be able to keep the lights on with the new contract offer we put to them. They can barely afford the current one.

Remember when the legacies gave massive raises and everybody wondered how they would pay for them? Probably the same way. People, airlines, whatever tend to rise to the occasion.

Why don’t you give us your number? What’s the magic number? Should we take pay cuts to help the team?

What’s going to happen if Barry keeps his promise and gets us back to double digit margins next year (400M) and your number got signed? We were well on our way this year before BAM! What if we are well on our way next year, and the year after that, and the year after that. The SLB transactions are only speeding up for the next 5 years.

Bob is not going to do that, it would require to much effort. he just likes to do a flyby every few days to tell us that we are not going to get a decent contract because F9 is not making massive profits.

Your guess about his motivations are as good as mine. Like clock work he comes by every few days makes the same low effort argument. Then we all spend the next few days explaining INDIGO IS MAKING A PROFIT AND BUYING OTHER AIRLINES ,BERRY IS MAKING HIS PREFORMANCE GOALS FOR HIS 8 MILLION. THE OPERATION HAS MASSIVE INEFFECIENTIES WE ARE WAY OVERSTAFFED. THE MONEY IS THERE THE PEOPLE RUNNING INDIGO RATHER PLAY GAMES THEN PAY US.

If we don't get something soon. The NC should rework the numbers with inflation in mind and looking forward. I would also like to see a yearly increase of at least 2% after the contract expires because we know they like to play games.

That's easy. First some math:

The going 12 CA rate (AA/UA/DL) for A321 (includes 320 for AA) for 2025 is 375.28 (according to recent contract comparison). If those #s are off, apologies. That rate goes up by 4% for each airline next year to $390.29. However, the min monthly guaranteed hours differ for each airline. MMG for AA (lineholder) is 65. DL lineholder is 65. UA lineholder is 70. So, the "cheapest" monthly compensation FOR JUST MMG for 2026 will be $25,368.85. Keeping our MMG of 75 hours, the rate needed for equivalent compensation is about $338.25.

However, the issue with reserve MMG is different. Reserve MMG for AA (Long Call) is 73 and (Short Call) is 76. DL MMG varies between 72-80 based on ALV. UA MMG is 73 for 8 months of the year and 77 for Jun, Jul, Aug and Dec. If we keep our MMG at 75 hours but are paid only $338.25, the monthly compensation (as mentioned above) of $25,368.75 is less by anywhere from $2731.41 to $5,853.65. So, accepting a less rate sells our reserves short.

Further, we must factor in that AA/DL/UA all have international overrides of $6.25, $6.50 and $7.00 / hr respectivley for all flights outside CONUS, AK (and Canada for UA). Also, they all pay at least $1.00 more in per diem. Of course, this doesn't apply to all flights but it does add to the bottom line (I can imagine A321 international goes senior at those airlines).

So, the real question is - WHICH IS BEST. Higher rate but less MMG or vice versa. The answer is quite obvious - higher rate w/ less MMG is far superior given 1). lower MMG means less hours of flying needed per month, and more importantly 2). any "overtime" or above MMG credit is obviously paid at the higher rate.

So more math: let's say a 12 yr DL A321 CA credits 79.5 hours in a month (in 2026). His/her pay would be $31,027.26. With a new rate of $338.25, the F9 pilot would need to credit 91.73 hours (or with 1.25 override - 86.3 hours).


I WILL GLADLY ACCEPT LESS MMG FOR A HIGHER RATE. In fact, I'm hoping that happens.

Given just these few items, the fact that the bottom 50% (or sometimes more) could be on reserve given a base closure or lack of flying or whatever, we really should focus on equivalent compensation for them. Either pay the higher AA/DL/UA rate or reduce the # of hours that reserves need to be on call.

Yes, yes it does. I've got the math on that as well...

Our contract became amendable on Jan 16, 2024. Let's use that date for start of retro.

I don't remember the 2024 12 CA rates for us or the big 3. The 2025 12 yr CA rate for AA/UA/DL is $375.28. That rate goes to $390.29 on 1 Jan 2026. Let's say we get a contract July of 2026 and it MATCHES the current AA/UA/DL rate (humor me). To get a TRUE amount of actual retro pay we would need to get the differences in pay for each of 2024, 2025 and 2026.

For 2024, let's estimate the rate difference at $90/hr. The monthly difference (using MMG for both airlines of 75) = $6,750. For a year, $81,000.
For 2025, the rate difference is $105.21. For a month, that equates to $ $7,890.75. Yearly is $94,689.
For 6 months of 2026, the rate difference is $120.22. Monthly difference is $9,016.5. Yearly is $108,198.

For 2024, 2025 and 6 months of 2026, a 12 CA at F9 has made $229,788 dollars LESS than his/her counterpart at the big 3. Anything short of this amount is less than full retro. And, of course, that difference goes up by $9016.5 every month (until 2027 when the difference increases). BTW, the difference amounts get HIGHER when compared to years less than 12 AND it assumes we get rates that same as 2026 AA/UA/DL.

In order to pay full retro to the entire pilot group, the cost would be $500M+. Full retro isn't going to happen (hasn't happened in the history of the industy IIRC) but THERE ARE A FEW WAYS TO NARROW THE GAP.

The BEST way to make up for less retro is to obtain an EQUIVALENT rate BETTER than current AA/UA/DL. Same pay rate at AA/DL/UA but less MMG, higher premium pay percentage, move vacation days, higher min day, etc. Again, THESE QoL PROVISIONS NEED TO BE SOLID provisions that can't be changed/negated by company action. Training pay needs to go to 5 hrs / day. 150% DH pay. 20% DC to 401k. Etc.

Right now, while our pay is stagnant, we're falling behind at a rate of about 15% per year (we are currently about 40-45% behind depending on the year group of pay). So, it's worth it to me to vote no IF we can get > 15% improvement in the next negotiation (given it's within the same year). Ie. a no vote would necessitate our NC asking for 15% higher rates AT LEAST.

no way Barry pays half Billion for " full retro"

Of course not or he would have already given us a contract…. Logic is hard for most.

G4 lurker here and I see a similar sentiment from a few people here and it just makes think “thou doth protest too much…”

if you actually felt that way (instead of pure posturing) then you’d be outta here years ago. You’re either completely clueless (doubt it), incredibly unintelligent (which isn’t true), posturing (likely), un-hireable (possible). Because if you were actually committed to only working at F9 if F9 paid you more than the legacies rates then you’re a fool and I don’t believe that to be the case.

you knew in 2022-2023 that F9 was never gonna pay above legacies rates yet you stayed… why? Are you un-hireable? Or did you stay for whatever personal reasons you have and now you are posturing about voting no a TA that paid legacy rates.

again, you and a few of my brothers at G4 also “protest too much” and claim they’d vote down rates that are industry leading because we do more with less as well.

I’ll stop lurking, but from what I’ve seen at G4, this attitude and mentality is not helpful and only builds division within the membership. I’ve seen it firsthand with the FIVE different negotiating committees we’ve had during our four years of negotiations.

Wow, five would be a big number if you had been in section 6 negotiations for a decade!

Our union has been filled with fraud, corruption, drama, lawsuits, etc i’ll just within the union.

The teamsters have reached a new low that I didn’t think was possible.

But supposedly, it’s all gonna work out great and we are gonna get legacy rates and be able to sleep in our own bed every night because Sean O’Brien said some mean stuff to management on TikTok

we need this Alpa drive to just happen already

How exactly would one know that?

Keep in mind that F9 had the highest paid pilots pre 9/11. Of course, that was long ago, new owner, new circumstances, yada, yada, yada but why would ANYONE think they would be paid less perpetually after 1 contract cycle?

HAHAHAHAHA you trying to justify this? G4 had industry leading rates from about August 2016 to 2017 and then the legacies jumped (starting with delta) us. But I never thought our union hating founder (Gallagher) would actually pay us on par with legacies. Did you know nothing about Indigo, Franke, BB, etc?

If you nickel dime your passengers, gate agents, why wouldn’t the bosses nickel and dime by far their most expensive labor group?

I’ll list them:

1. Indigo
2. ULCC
3. Look at your margins, they were great and you still didn’t get close to industry leading when compared to how far behind you were with the legacies.
4. Hiring standards. F9 has never been as competitive as the legacies with their hiring standards (post bankruptcy and indigo acquisition). It’s not a dig, G4 is the same way. It doesn’t do anybody any good to ignore reality.
5. Revenue differential between the big four and F9.
6. F9 is not “too big to fail”.

Fair points.

Perhaps you're right. When I was hired 10+ years ago, my thought process was simple - this airlines is the new SWA (who started out paying its pilots less but as it grew, compensated them appropriately to where they are the highest paid now). Of course, Franke is NOT Kelleher but why would anyone take AND STAY at a job 100% knowing they'll never get what others who do the same get?

The answer is - they wouldn't. And you can stop w/ the "un-hireable" silliness - if F9 hired someone and they have the hours and don't have a DUI since, they're attractive to every other airline. The problem, as you have pointed out, is hope. In this business where seniority requires that you pick the right horse from the start, we all hoped (not expected but HOPED) either mgt would eventually come around (ala SWA) or that we as a group could force the issue (via unity and self-help). As they say, hope is not a plan but it is something real to many people.

Maybe that's a pipe dream, maybe not. Every contract cycle is the chance to find out. Personally, I don't think the pilots here at F9 have the necessary unity but I'm on record stating that I actually WANT to strike - one because I already know the POS TA that we'll end up getting won't be enough but also out of curiosity to see if the RLA is viable. But I have issues so . . . there's that.

As for now, given the years invested, that's all I can do until our new TA becomes an AIP and the math favors leaving. Then I will collect my retro check and leave.

I am HOPING I made the right decision sticking here with 32 years left. As much complaints as people have and the small issues I deal with daily. Spending 5 nights away from home as a CA each month with under 5 years at an airline is something I will not give up. (My wife also doesn't want me to give it up either, especially with a baby)

Now, Could I go somewhere else? Yeah probably... Could this place change? yeah probably... Could we merge with someone? yeah probably... Is the grass always greener at legacies? yeah probably...

After all is said and done, I do enjoy my job here, the life it affords me at the point in my life is just too good.

That being said... All this reduction on T/W and base openings really shafted my seniority, but it is what it is.

I’m reading everyone discuss legacy rates, while I’ve put myself on a two year plan to have my finances in order in case frontier ceases operations and I’m out of a job. I feel like I’m on the deck of the titanic watching the iceberg get closer while everyone around me is arguing about the dinner menu.

I sure hope you all are right and I’m wrong.

If you're that worried why not put your apps in at a legacy?

bc these turd nuggets have one foot out the door (legacy/retirement/transient ), and want you to agree to anything for a quick payout/better wages before leaving.

everyone who truly believed this place has one foot in the grave have long since left, or is in the process of leaving.

You’re welcome in advance.

If this is indeed correct (and you end up being right), wouldn't you rather have MORE money than less when you're furloughed?

Do you REALLY think pilot pay is the final straw - that somehow this company will make it ONLY if it continues to underpay its labor groups? And if so, doesn't that very fact worry you?

Of course not. Why would I or anyone else (especially Wall Street analysts) think that if F9 increased their largest cost by 40-55% it might actually F9’s long term viability???

You do realize we have the greatest job in the world and will be making WAY more than we ever dreamed possible just 8-10 years ago.

Maybe I’m just speaking for myself but I look at my friends and family and the garbage they put up with at work (doctors, lawyers, plumbers, accountants, landscaping, etc.). It all sounds way worse than the stuff I deal with the 10-13 days a month I work. Not to mention I’m looking at a minimum of a 42% raise in my overall compensation.

Do I wish I was paid on par with legacies - of course. Am I still going to make more money and continue to spend a ton of time at home with my family than I ever thought possible: yes.

Don’t get caught up in the moment. We have the best job in the world and will be paid more than we ever thought possible (notwithstanding the pay will be less than legacies) when the time comes.

booo go back to your own forum we’re trying to blaze some new trails now. If our job is so great come fly some of my trips for free:) (I know it’s an awesome job but surgeons who love cutting don’t do it for free either)

this guy doesn’t understand inflation. Or the fact that corporations have stolen the wages from the average worker. Adjusted for inflation 1990 family would make 170,000 a year. Allowing corporations steal money from us while they give themselves a pay raise every year is why this happens. We deserve a lot more than we are even getting adjusted for inflation we are way behind from the 1990s.


but sure. Go compare yourself to mostly none union jobs that haven’t kept up with inflation because they refuse to pay union dues and become politically active to back their rights to compensation and quality of life.

We deserve to make what the going rate for an airbus pilot is. Just like they pay the c suite the going rate for their work.


just like a McDonald’s worker deserves a living wage. Just like a grocer deserves a living wage. We have our life because we fight for those benefits. Your attitude is one of concessions in a time when we have the highest level of inflation since the Great Depression. All the while we have a president enforcing taxes on all of our imported necessities. We need more to just maintain the purchasing power of our 2019 contract.

of course not. But a surgeon in Oklahoma gets paid differently than a surgeon in NYC even tho perform the exact same procedures.

And flying planes a third of the month is WAY better than being a surgeon who works 24/7.

there is no soft time, pay protection, or paid time off for surgeons 😉