those same corporations that have stolen from the average worker have also caused my stock portfolio to grow at close to 20% year over a year for the past 15 years. It is absolutely insane for a pilot who receives a direct contribution into a 401(k) back by the stock market to complain about corporations not oaying workers what the “deserve”.

Or are you putting your direct contribution into a savings account and earning 4% yoy? Oh you choose to invest in the S&P? Then all this complaining about these evil corporations is pure hypocrisy and posturing.

I understand inflation and the time value of money. But I also make ~260k a year working 11-12 days a month and spending time with family, friends, and the great outdoors. I’ll also have more in retirement then I could possibly spend. That’s a good enough life for me.

you can call me dumb, crazy, weak, a stooge, etc. but if you will be forever miserable until you earn legacy rates then you should go to a legacy so you can have a good life. You should have gone in 2022-2023 and you’d have already made up your seniority. But those that stayed at F9 or G4 who continue to posture about legacy rates or bust is not helpful. It has created massive division at G4 and I’m sure that same human behavior has created division at F9.

Dude. Its called abused spouse syndrome and you have it.

I’m not married to G4. I work here a third of the month. The rest of the time I’m with family, side hustle, hobbies, friends, etc.

If your life is this bad then you should have left F9 a few years ago. F9 is the same in 2025 that it was in 2022 and 2023. Nothing has changed.

It’s like you voted for Trump and then claim to be shocked about tariffs. He did exactly what he said he was gonna do. BB, Frankie, indigo, etc are doing exactly what they’ve always said they were gonna do: maintain an extreme cost advantage. Translation: always pay less for labor.

I thought you were going to stop lurking after your first post??? You claim f9 pilots that are legacy or bust on rates are creating division but you yourself are fanning those flames. Everyone is entitled to express expectations in an agreement. Thanks for your insight but anyone trying to lower expectations for any pilot has questionable intentions.

You’re right. I’m wrong. Okay. Thanks. You can go back to your hobbit hole now. I’ve been enlightened. I can’t handle much more enlightening. I’m not worthy.

get to a status meeting already!

seriously

filler

Frontier is getting ready to sell. It’s happening.

Zero evidence of that. You want to post something wild at least back it up. Otherwise, stop trolling.

This could MAYBE make sense if anyone was looking to buy. Nobody seems to be looking to buy right now.

CaptNate, I wanna thank you. Your posts are so obviously mgt or just general trolling that it makes for decent entertainment. But I especially like posts like this because it gives me an opportunity to help out my fellow pilot brethren. You see, F9 pilots aren't the most unified. We're disjointed. We have a lot of those who feel like they don't deserve legacy rates, that somehow they're lesser because the company is lesser. That it's their job to make sure the company makes money despite the fact that the company could give a rats a$$ about what any pilot thinks, suggests or cares about. So your message is an opportunity to help bring us closer together. To get all of us thinking the same - the way OTHER airlines also want us to think. To help out ourselves and the collective pilot groups across this nation by not accepting less than the going rate.

But to your point specifically...your comparison above is a comparison of apple and oranges. Yes, being a pilot is better than being a landscaper or plumber or accountant or <insert other profession here> but make no mistake, each profession pays different. Surgeons make more than landscapers. Attorneys make more than plumbers. Accountants make more than McDonald's cashiers. Why? Because surgeons, attorneys and accountants (and pilots) are SKILLED labor. It takes 3-5 years to become a surgeon. Same for pilots. And, it costs a sh!tload to do so. You or I could work for McDonald's w/ a high school diploma.

Second, surgeons in NY do make more than those in OK. The cost of living in OK is much less than NY. This argument has nothing to do with pilots. This is an apples to wheelbarrows comparison. Pilots obviously don't fly in just one state. You're a pilot who flies to over 120 different destinations. And, you could be FORCED to be based in a place you don't necessarily want (a more expensive base) due to a base closure. Not sure if you were here then, but F9 closed a base in the 3rd largest city in the US and displaced about 100 pilots involuntarily. Do you think that ever happens to a surgeon in Tulsa? And, while we're on the subject, I'm sure you know that surgeons in OK still make more than F9 pilots (and work probably about as much). Surgeons (not just doctors) are the elite of their profession. Insurance usually pays most of it but have you ever looked at a bill where surgery was needed (even in OK)?

So, there's really no way around it. Pilots at F9 should be compared to pilots at other major airlines. Plain and simple. That's apples to apples. Any pilot that flies an Airbus A321neo (or the equivalent Boeing) is our comparison group. Does that include Spirit and Allegiant? Yes, it does. But it ALSO includes Big 4, AK, JB, etc. You certainly can't leave any of them out just to fit your narrative.

In the end, there really is no way around the fact that despite how WONDERFUL your flying job is here, it's EVEN MORE WONDERFUL at other places for doing the same thing. There are 10 other major airlines in the US (DL, AA, UA, NK, JB, AK/HW, WN, SY and G4) and the ONLY one that pays less is G4 (and they're in negotiations as well). UA 321 pilots have the same days off, better reserve rules (18 hour long call, short call that includes extra pay, etc.) and are paid more per hour. AA 321 pilots fly some of the same routes, have jumpseats they can reserve (for commuters) and are paid more per hour. DL 321 pilots get meals, stay in better hotels and are paid more. And when I mention paid more - it's a HUNDRED+ dollars more PER HOUR.

Is your flying really that great that someone else who looks just like you, went to the same schools and has the same experience worth $100+ more per hour than you? Im sure there's a landscaper that just LOVES their job but if they found out the landscaping company across the street pays 45% more, they would consider asking their boss for a raise.

Legacy rates, Captnate. Legacy rates.

Wow. Who let Biffle get an APC login?

You are embarrassing the rest of your G4 people. They deserve better than to have to sit next to you.

You DO realize there's risk involved in the market...20% is great but not typical. You must be really smart. But how did your portfolio do during 9/11? During the housing crisis? During COVID?

Only a fool would prefer (praise) 401k contributions over solid salary. Especially when that salary is hundreds of thousands less. If you made $100k more per year but got 1% less of DC you'd still have more in your 401k (AND wallet).


But as I mentioned, you're a smart one. You already knew that.

you know…. There’s other ways to invest your money besides paltry savings accounts, index funds, and 401ks.

some of us have pretty lucrative side hustles that require financial investments.

but I’ll follow Captnate for more advice on how to achieve financial independence.

:rolleyes:

First, I would never prefer retirement contribution over solid salary/hourly rate - that was never a question.

Your argument was that I should hate big corporations and not support the Amazons, Walmarts, etc. that don't pay workers the money they "deserve". And that line of thinking is fatally flawed if you are strongly supporting those same corporations by gobbling up their stock every pay period when you or your employer contribute to an S&P backed 401k plan. That was my argument.

And near 20% returns has been a cake walk over the past ten years. QQQ invesco is 19% over the past decade and that is a simple index fund. I am an idiot, not a day trader.

I was the one slamming employers who steal from their employees. No I don’t invest in Amazon or other companies like that. Because I have a moral compass bigger than your ego.


I on the other hand have in a previous life made very lucrative moves on the market before changing to a more respectful strategy of labor.

You demand more compensation you have a union you secure good quality of life this way. No I didn’t vote for the admin that is so adamantly anti-labor that they steal from their own voters daily with their new tarrif policy, because I understand economics at an undergraduate level. I suggest you go back to your side of the forum and step out of our negotiations. Pattern bargaining is what it’s all about. Not to bring up the bottom but to strive for the top rate. If you don’t understand that either then I’m worried about your family having you as a contributor.

Got it. So after you made your millions or tens of millions off the backs of poverty level workers at big business you decided to have a more "respectful strategy of labor." How incredibly NOBLE of you. I hope someday after I have made my share of "very lucrative moves on the market" I can have a moral compass as big as your ego.

So where do you put the direct contribution from your employer? If its in the market then you are benefiting from big business. That is the point I am making. If Vision Wings is so noble that after he made his millions or more from the market he is no longer supporting big business then where he is putting his direct contribution?

I work about 11 days a month and sleep at home every night. of course i have a side hustle and other investments. I am talking specifically about the 401k contributions that we all have and how we benefit a great deal from big business screwing over workers. Not saying that is okay, but to ignore how greatly we benefit from those same big businesses is posturing and disingenuous.

Surgeons work 24/7 ?

The one I know personally, owns numerous clinics in a major metro area and has an LLC his Gulfstream 550 is owned by. He flies it (well, his Pilots do...) all over the country.

He has never told me his job sucks. Not sure he considers it "work." He LOVES his job. His income is lovable also.

He has never been furloughed

His medical school debt was immediately paid off once he started work as a surgeon

His hot, not working wife, stays home and is a great person.

Not once has he wished he was an airline pilot.

I use my salary and reinvest in my business. I sell feet pictures of pilots on OF.

Best response of the day!

Ah, the 401k question. Big business and it's millions of low income workforce. How could anyone support that?

LOL - in all actuality, it's IMPOSSIBLE not to. No matter what you do, where you go or who you purchase from, you have to support big business. There is absolutely nobody in this country who is self-reliant to the point where some VERY LARGE business isn't involved.

You eat? You buy groceries (instead of farming your own vegetables and growing your own cattle and chicken)? Then you support a big business. You live in a house that you didn't build yourself? Then you support a big business. You work for an airline? You think your airline is the ONLY airline that doesn't have low income workers? You go on vacation and stay in a hotel? You ever watched a movie on Netflix? You drive a car?

C'mon man. Your argument is so ridiculous, it's not even worth bringing up. Unless you somehow live outside the US AND have a lifestyle like the Amish, then you are part of the exploitation process (capitalism at its finest).

That was most certainly NOT my argument. Who mentioned anything about hating big corporations? And I think you missed the point of VisionWings but I do understand your position vs. his/hers.

In the end, we all must do what's necessary to survive. Once that's achieved, then we do what we can to thrive (not everyone has this ability). Thriving can be anywhere from living comfortably to building an empire. NO ONE ever built an empire that didn't include exploiting others. It's the basis for capitalism (and is completely relative). No matter who the labor is - they are ALWAYS exploited. Pro athletes make millions and have gone on strike. Why would pilots who make 80-90% less than that not do the same?

I'm not even sure why this was ever brought up...

Dracir1

you are arguing with a homeless guy who jumped out from his tent and called you Satan

save your energy.

I completely agree with you which is why I find VisionWings utterly hypocritical for making his millions or whatever in the market and then blasting me and others for investing in that same market and big business. VisionWings then went on about how he doesn’t use Amazon, shop at Walmart or support any non-union entities. Again, that is NOBLE of him to stop supporting big business after he made his millions or tens of millions investing in those same big businesses who exploit their workers.

I was mistaken and, I got you and VisionWings mixed up with your arguments. The ironic part is those unions that he claims are so righteous are also investing their pensions in those same big businesses to make sure they get the returns to fund their members’ retirement.