Premium is king
 

So does everyone think this last memo will fix premiums?

Maybe... maybe not.

No. The fix will be when we get to some sort of fifo system similar to nk. It’s the best system imo. Seniority based has its own issues.

The bad news is: it said things everyone knew was already true.

The good news is: it dispels the narrative that “the company doesn’t care, it only cares that the trips get covered”

I agree with both of those statements.

Slightly disagree.

Action, not docunet notes, will dispel the narrative. The company put out a similar warning via docunet almost two years ago and abuse continued.

Kind of... It was just about bot usage.

This latest memo was solely because there were pilots unable to fly the trip and cancellations. I will bet my whole paycheck for the month that if there weren't a ton of UTFs and sick calls, there wouldn't have been a memo, further showing that they only care about the bottom line, not pilots breaking FAR117 rules to fly trips that would normally pay about straight pay at a shop with a new contract.

We have captains crediting over 200hrs a month, JSing anywhere and everywhere, sleeping in airports, taking anything they can get to make as much as possible. They wouldn't even have to work 50% as hard to make close to the same money if we had a new contract, but these pilots are greedy.

If you want to see the names of these pilots, just search the pairings... The same 10-15 pilots pick up everything. There are many pilots who are starting to deny these pilots on their JS if it is for a premium trip. FOs who are ASAPing flights with them as well due to them falling asleep mid flight or on arrival. It is insane and needs to stop.

for better or for worst, “action” is probably easier said than done. You need proof, a pattern, give warnings, bring a case, fight union representation, get a final verdict.

Then, after all that, maybe you punish them. Maybe you punish them severely. Maybe you can fire them. Maybe the union gets their job back.

im not saying I disagree with you.

My understanding was that there were punishments. It would have been prudent to let the pilot group know what those punishments were to help prevent further stupidity.

Context of said Memo would be great.

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Rumor is…last tailstrike was a crewmember(s) who picked up premium.

wonder if that’s what finally got this action to be taken. Or pressure applied from above mgmt.

Such professionals.

That pilot group is beyond cooked.

The gist is don't use bots to break the rules of our company, FLiCA, and basic morality.

Anyone see the list of names released into the FB group??

Some pilots got 18-20 premiums last month?

How is this ok.

If you have names, pairing numbers, specific FAR 117 violations or personal stories you should fill out ASAP’s.

The FAA is starting to look into this.

That sounds like a great question for your union rep. Let us know what they say.

If they did it within the bounds of the CBA, adhering to 117 rest requirements, and without the use of automated software, am I supposed to be angry? Serious question.

No, but with how hard it is to get 1 premium it’s hard to believe anyone can get 18 without some sort of automated software

guarantee no one on that list are doing this within those. For instance a premium just went out and they have to commute from xyz to xyz(I won’t call out bases). The only flight left gets in at 23:59 and the report time for said premium is 0515L… so you’re telling me they are within their 117 limits. Bull crap

We gotta stop talking about Part 117. Part 117 has nothing to do with a pilot’s personal time. It’s strictly company related, even the fit for duty we sign. We sign it agreeing we are not fatigued due to any company related rest requirements.

If a pilot shows up not prepared to fly because they came in on a red eye and then flying all day, it’s whole different ball of wax. I’d say ASAP is probably the best choice. And if you think the other pilot is not safe, stop the show, call crew scheduling and tell them to send in a reserve. If no reserves are available (because hey, the tired pilot is on premium so highly likely) and the company cancels a flight(s), guess what will happen? If CD is serious, you can bet there will be a Sec19. This stuff will stop fast.

This is the answer. Union also said a base lock for premium is coming soon. In base pilots only for a certain period of time. That should solve the issue.

I hope that happens. Would certainly require a LOA though.

I know of instances where people are picking up out of base and can't possibly be rested for the duty period. (I don't care about the regs, I'm talking about reality) It's unacceptable. I'm sure it's happening multiple times every day.

If you get into any type of accident/ incident the FAA and NTSB are going to be looking very carefully at what you were doing prior to reporting for duty. Some people are obviously putting their careers (or worse) at risk to steal premiums from other bases.

These pilots must certainly have to use some sort of bot, script. Think about it. every base has pilots chasing premium and that’s hard to do within your own base. Somehow these other pilots are beating every pilot that only tries to pick in their own domicile. it’s improbable.

SMH - Premium...again. 26.H.4

A flight leaves 11:59 pm from LAS. As per contract, in order for a commuter to use the Prudent Judgment clause, they must show at least 2 arrival options that arrive 1 hour prior to any scheduled report time. Pilot A (DEN based) got to their local airport around 8 pm (MST), departed at 9 pm, then landed around 9:30ish (PST). Then, they flew their one leg 4.5 hour redeye (10:59 pm showtime) to ATL (landing at 7:30 am EST). Are they legal? Absolutely. Are they rested? They electronically signed the form that they were so that's all anyone can go with.

Arrival into ATL, they're visibly tired. What should happen? ASAP? A stern "talking to" from the other pilot discussing how they spent the time prior to departing DEN or at LAS after commuting in? A call to pro-standards? Does it matter if it's a reserve, line-holder or someone chasing premium? Is it worse (or better) if you saw that pilot sleeping in the airport in uniform in the sleep room? Gate area?

How many times has this happened in the HISTORY of 121/135?

We need to be very careful how we complain about premium.

Pretty sure people are talking about different scenarios than what you describe. But yes, I understand what you’re saying.

I paid the 3 dollar Flica plan for alerts and got 6-7 texts in just one night with good weather. After the first day, I just turned it off and set it to only get emails from my base. If someone had no life and just watched text messages, they could pick trips really fast with the alert system from all the bases. The FO pay in our contract doesn't really motivate me to go back out on the road to chase a dollar.

Ahhhh, that old chestnut. It's not like it's all some nerd FO with an IT hobby. There are websites/companies that you can join that create these bots for people. You can google it, there are membership levels and everything.

I don't think there is anything wrong with the "grind," and getting debt paid off. But the Bot usage for it is questionable.

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If I’m not mistaken, this still qualifies as violating the terms of service of FLICA.

It absolutely is. But these guys surrender their Flica User/Pass to the Bot. Once that is done the Bot takes the wheel.
The Pilot group would have better luck policing it internally or written into a contract versus expecting CAE/Flica to do something about it.

I hate that this is still a thing.

F138-

This only works insofar as the pilot group is remotely capable of it.

From my experience, and the recent drama shared in class group chats, many of these guys are completely misguided on how picking up premium actually works. They’re too lazy or life constrained to really “hustle” like the “pros” and just want these flights served on a platter to them. And you want them to police the alleged bot usage? I am unconvinced any bots even exist.

I was a junior FO when I figured out how to get some premium. I could probably get 50% of the ones I put in for and I was junior. It involves a lot of staring at FLICA and seeing where the reserve coverage is weak.. Obviousy this favors the folks with more time on their hands or who commit to it entirely. All of these people complaining don’t want to do that. Go figure.

It boils down to jealousy, and you don’t want mob rule governing the pilot group.

You're drawing a ton of assumptions from which the conclusions are dubious at best. This is a can of worms that I don't think the pilot group wants to open if they truly think it through, as dracir alluded.

The can of worms is already open. The FAA is investigating the recent tail strike tied to one of the biggest premium abusers.

Yup. The big pic bottom line is these folks are going to force the faa to consider commuting as duty. That was already contemplated in 117 rough drafts. Potentially Hosing all commuters industry wide.

BOTs are definitely being used. Their speed is the evidence of their use. Not a single human in the world can select that "Add" button next to the pairing then the "submit request" button above it in less than 1/2 a second. Yet, there's been evidence that trips have been selected in less time than that from being advertised.

And therein lies the problem, There shouldn't have to be any hustle required other than the hustle and the desire to actually show up for the trip ready to fly.

Staring at a screen for hours at a time does not have the payout when looking at the hours required vs hours gained. reCaptcha did nothing except knockout the people using an AutoRefresh script leaving more scrap for the bot people.

A FIFO type system is the only way to do this fairly IMHO

If a person is a regular premium flyer and they say that they aren't using a bot, then they are a filthy liar and I will happily call them that to their face.

there’s some very simple solutions to this problem that we just don’t implement for various reasons. For example, put a 5-15 minute window on this stuff, then assign it by seniority. Restrict or deny out of base pickups. Apply a back of the line solution.

a lot of these BS problems would go away. You me and everyone else would feel less ****ed, and it probably have th added benefit of being safer.

This would work; however....

That'd be more work for Scheduling (who is already borderline capable).

Screwing over fellow pilots while also screwing over the company by picking up an out of base premo, then calling in sick or calling off via prudent judgment should be a punishable offense. At my old airline, that would get you fired. Its bad enough these clowns are using bots. But its adding gasoline to a fire when they screw the company hard as well. These trips are in premo for a reason. They need to be covered. It most certainly does not help us at the bargaining table to have flights cancel because pilots were cheating the system and failed to show up to work. I say a 6 month remote flica ban to start with. Ramp up the punishment from there.

Haven’t employees been fired for stealing off the food carts?

When I was hired it was “don’t lie, cheat, or steal and you will keep your job here”

How is lying about a bot, cheating with it, and stealing hundreds of thousands of dollars from your peers not a fireable offense.

Everyone was warned about this 6 months ago by a must read.

The reason we have police, FBI, etc. isn't because people haven't been told. Most people break the law daily (usually through some sort of traffic violation like speeding or not stopping full at a stop sign, etc.)

The only reason this is a thing is because the company has been impacted by those who pick up then can't show for whatever reason. If it continues, the company will take further action, I'm sure. But it's doubtful it will. Expect more of the same.

This is the pilot force of Frontier Airlines.