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proskuneho 09-27-2008 05:29 PM

Why do you like or dislike your job?
 
Hello all. I am a career changer. After a decade in management, the flying bug is really getting me. I am well aware of the ups and downs of the industry. I also understand the dues that the average pilot pays to earn the "dream job". I have already taken a huge pay cut to become a CFI/CFII/MEI, and anticipate another drastic cut whenever the regionals are hiring non-furloughed pilots again! Considering the fact that so many people leave other careers to chase the dream to fly, it must be worth the sacrifices!
Or is it? You are all aware of the stereotype of the whiny pilot, but I know that many pilots have valid reasons to complain. I am curious what many of you think, especially if you left a better paying (and more stable career) to do this.
Why do you like your job? :)
If you are not happy, why?:rolleyes:
My opinion? I have got my first pilot certificate in 1996, and I just now have over 900 hrs with 155 multi. You don't fly much when you manage the people that are flying. For me, flying is amazing. There is awesome satisfaction in a nice instrument approach that leads to a greased landing. There is so much beauty, freedom, and excitement. What better office?

el jefe 09-27-2008 06:05 PM

I know I love to shoot a short approach, vectored in high and fast, with a full boat and a nasty crosswind. That's the 5 minutes of each day that gets my heart going.

Or fly a leg through an East Coast storm, shoot a tricky ILS to minimums, and have 75% of the passengers drop off a used air-sickness bag with the flight attendant.

All the other tedious B.S. that we have to deal with (ground stops, overnights, long periods away from home, etc) is worth it when you finally get to fly the plane like its your first flight in a C152.

withthatsaid182 09-27-2008 06:22 PM

I dislike my job because:

I'm on the low end of the seniority list i.e. the last guy.

Reserve is no fun.

You are always in a hotel during those times you really need to be home.

I, along with everyone around me try to do an honest to goodness helluva job and still get paid poorly.

Taking the bus sucks.

I have to set my alarm for 0330 a lot these days.

I like my job because:

I sit on the couch a lot and then often go fly around.

At 37,000 feet I can see a load of cool looking constellations.

There's nothing like cruising around drinking coffee and seeing those constellations with your feet up and seat back.

Flying through the weather and not worrying about a your one and only engine failing, or getting too much ice, or not being able to get above/around weather.

I meet a lot of interesting people with some interesting stories.

Instead of calling them thrust reversers I call them "Buckets".

It's as close as I am going to get to being a pirate.

I get a paycheck to do it all.

proskuneho 09-27-2008 06:42 PM

Thanks for the great responses guys. So overall, do you think it is worth the sacrifices?

ExperimentalAB 09-27-2008 06:47 PM

Worth the sacrifices? Tough call - for some maybe, for others maybe not...I ::think:: I'm of the former?

I can't tell you how satisfying my job is on a good day. That I was born for it doesn't come close to cutting it...Just know that at times you'll be flying with guys that are flying for a completely different reason - they don't love it like you do...A lot of guys I flew with while in ORD didn't even like driving a car. In my personal opinion, if you don't like operating ground machinery, you have no business in the front end of a 500 knot flying machine...Not only is that a tough pill to swallow, but they will try and bring you down (not intentionally, of course, but will nonetheless).

rickair7777 09-27-2008 07:02 PM


Originally Posted by proskuneho (Post 469657)
Thanks for the great responses guys. So overall, do you think it is worth the sacrifices?


ExperimentalAB has a point...if you don't like machinery, you're not going to dig it in the long run. But with your flight experience, you should probably know by now.

From a career-changer perspective, it will only be worth it at your age if you made good use of your decade in business. You will want the house paid for, retirement funded, cash for training, plus a survival fund to make ends meet until you are a regional CA. Or have an understanding spouse with a high-paying, portable job (doctor, nurse, etc).

You will have to be prepared to move to your job location, or be VERY selective about working only for airline(s) which junior domiciles which are commutable from your home.

Also, with the long-term uncertainty in oil, be prepared for the possibility that your career will stagnate very early on...most of the economy can adapt to alternative energy, but it will not be so easy for passenger airlines.

Boomer 09-27-2008 07:29 PM


Originally Posted by proskuneho (Post 469606)
If you are not happy, why?:rolleyes:

I'm also a career changer, and all the positives you mention are real... for a time. Your love of aviation will determine if, and how long, that flame will continue to burn. Mine is still burning (most days) after 8 years.

Four downsides you already know about, but are HUGE in my opinion...

1) New faces every day...

Unless your outfit has a small fleet or lots of little bases, you may not fly with the same crew for a year or more. After years in an office where you know everyone and their families, personal histories, quirks, etc., it gets to be a real pain to have to introduce yourself to another new Captain every few legs.

In other words... this complete stranger is your best friend for the next four days, and good luck remembering his name when you see him next week.


2) Checkrides, medicals, furloughs, bankruptcies, and everything you do is on tape (and the FAA's always listening...)

There are lots of things that will end your airline career faster than you can say "What do you mean I was swerving, officer?" Some are under your control; some are totally beyond your control, such as diabetes, a firecracker in the eye, or the price of Jet-A. You've heard the stories. Try saying that about an office job- Even a bad surgeon can kill a few people and not have to go back to kindergarten.


3) Being away...

If you have a family, your kid will break a leg or have a heart broken when you're in the middle of a trip. Your wife will open that credit card or insurance bill and totally freak out on the phone with you... when you're on a trip. The roof will leak and the fridge will explode... when you're on a trip. Christmas, Halloween, parades, scouts, sports, teacher meetings, reunions, church, lost teeth, birthdays, proms, graduations, weddings... some of them you'll get to go. Most, you will miss. Have I mentioned that you'll spend 150-200 nights a year away from your wife?

Someday, when you're finally senior enough at a regional to get weekends off, will you want to start over at a major and give up holidays for another 10 years, or make due with the $80,000 max pay as your career regional?

If you don't have a family, are you planning on starting one before you turn 65?


4) Money

You have to look at worst case, and your worst case may not be bad enough. In 1999 I looked at DAL, UAL, AA, etc. payscales and figured even if it took me a decade to get there I'd come out way ahead. My worst case was way off - I didn't account for them all taking a 50% hit in wages and retirement. I'm currently down about $620,000 compared to my last career and if anybody shares that number with my wife I'll deny it.

If you can't get by on $40,000 for the next 8 years, forget it. "Picking" the right regional is like picking the right stock fund and putting your entire 401k into it. Today's hot regional is tomorrow's dead end career. An airline with 2-year upgrades today will not be in the same situation two years from now, and no amount of personal effort will get you to the left seat if you pick the wrong airline and they start parking airplanes.

So, if you find yourself saying "I can survive on FO wages for about three years if I tap my retirement or put off having kids" then ask yourself what's the plan if you're still an FO going into year 4, or 5, or 6...

If you're like me you'll love aviation too much to leave, so you'll just hang out on webboards complaining about the Mesa scumbags that took your airplanes and how crummy it is to be a career regional FO. But it beats working for a living in many ways. You are right, you can't beat the view from our office window.


So to sum up, this industry has been in the toilet since a week after I got here (literally - I earned my Commercial Multi on 9/04/01), and I regret changing careers less than half the time. Your results may vary. Good luck with the Mesaba thing - they strike me as a good outfit to be with.

dojetdriver 09-27-2008 07:42 PM


Originally Posted by Boomer (Post 469684)
I'm also a career changer, and all the positives you mention are real... for a time. Your love of aviation will determine if, and how long, that flame will continue to burn. Mine is still burning (most days) after 8 years.

Four downsides you already know about, but are HUGE in my opinion...

1) New faces every day...

Unless your outfit has a small fleet or lots of little bases, you may not fly with the same crew for a year or more. After years in an office where you know everyone and their families, personal histories, quirks, etc., it gets to be a real pain to have to introduce yourself to another new Captain every few legs.

In other words... this complete stranger is your best friend for the next four days, and good luck remembering his name when you see him next week.


2) Checkrides, medicals, furloughs, bankruptcies, and everything you do is on tape (and the FAA's always listening...)

There are lots of things that will end your airline career faster than you can say "What do you mean I was swerving, officer?" Some are under your control; some are totally beyond your control, such as diabetes, a firecracker in the eye, or the price of Jet-A. You've heard the stories. Try saying that about an office job- Even a bad surgeon can kill a few people and not have to go back to kindergarten.


3) Being away...

If you have a family, your kid will break a leg or have a heart broken when you're in the middle of a trip. Your wife will open that credit card or insurance bill and totally freak out on the phone with you... when you're on a trip. The roof will leak and the fridge will explode... when you're on a trip. Christmas, Halloween, parades, scouts, sports, teacher meetings, reunions, church, lost teeth, birthdays, proms, graduations, weddings... some of them you'll get to go. Most, you will miss. Have I mentioned that you'll spend 150-200 nights a year away from your wife?

Someday, when you're finally senior enough at a regional to get weekends off, will you want to start over at a major and give up holidays for another 10 years, or make due with the $80,000 max pay as your career regional?

If you don't have a family, are you planning on starting one before you turn 65?


4) Money

You have to look at worst case, and your worst case may not be bad enough. In 1999 I looked at DAL, UAL, AA, etc. payscales and figured even if it took me a decade to get there I'd come out way ahead. My worst case was way off - I didn't account for them all taking a 50% hit in wages and retirement. I'm currently down about $620,000 compared to my last career and if anybody shares that number with my wife I'll deny it.

If you can't get by on $40,000 for the next 8 years, forget it. "Picking" the right regional is like picking the right stock fund and putting your entire 401k into it. Today's hot regional is tomorrow's dead end career. An airline with 2-year upgrades today will not be in the same situation two years from now, and no amount of personal effort will get you to the left seat if you pick the wrong airline and they start parking airplanes.

So, if you find yourself saying "I can survive on FO wages for about three years if I tap my retirement or put off having kids" then ask yourself what's the plan if you're still an FO going into year 4, or 5, or 6...

If you're like me you'll love aviation too much to leave, so you'll just hang out on webboards complaining about the Mesa scumbags that took your airplanes and how crummy it is to be a career regional FO. But it beats working for a living in many ways. You are right, you can't beat the view from our office window.


So to sum up, this industry has been in the toilet since a week after I got here (literally - I earned my Commercial Multi on 9/04/01), and I regret changing careers less than half the time. Your results may vary. Good luck with the Mesaba thing - they strike me as a good outfit to be with.

Excellent post. I like how you emphasized the aspects of the regionals. Because with the way this industry is going, guys that are just getting into it will more than likely be spending A LOT of time there.

proskuneho 09-27-2008 07:54 PM


Originally Posted by dojetdriver (Post 469691)
Excellent post. I like how you emphasized the aspects of the regionals. Because with the way this industry is going, guys that are just getting into it will more than likely be spending A LOT of time there.

Thanks for all the feedback guys. Keep it coming.

This will surely sound like a dumb question and common knowledge to many of you, but aren't the major airlines facing a HUGE (much larger than normal) number of retirements over the next decade? Will that not cause upward mobility in the regionals also?

kalyx522 09-27-2008 07:57 PM

I like my job because
1. It's fun... most especially the landing. That never gets old!
2. Airplanes are cool.
3. It's exciting and unpredictable at times. Most pilots hate LGA, but I love most everything about airports like that, even the 3 hr taxi (since I'm getting paid.) I love the tight approaches they have you do sometimes, and even the few times I've had to go around... I would never admit it to the captain who needs to fill out the paperwork afterwards, but secretly I revel in moments like that.
4. The job provides me a sense of pride from the fact that I can fly an airplane.
6. Jumpseating privilege is awesome.

I dislike my job because
1. I don't think I get paid enough for what I do. In fact, I think we're grossly undercompensated, EVEN considering the fact that it's a fun job. The lack of fair pay makes me feel mistreated and unappreciated as an employee, which in turn makes me hate my job.
2. As long as crap doesn't hit the fan (which I hope it doesn't), the job itself is very routine, which often makes it boring although this is sometimes a very nice thing since you can just sit on your butt and read magazines (and I realize this is a runon sentence)... but at the same time, it's not very fulfilling like it would be for a police officer, doctor, etc. who make the world a better place. All you do is tranport people from one place to another, and as long as you do your job right, you made no difference. I know some people don't care about that, but personally, I wish my job involved making a difference in someone's life, even in a small way.
3. Often getting treated like utter crap from the company, esp. crew schedulers.
4. Unpredictable and unstable nature of the career.
5. Not being able to come home every night. I imagine this will only get harder as I get older and have a family.
6. The everyday BS like waiting several hours for a hotel room, not getting proper pay credit, etc.

I don't know if the regional forum is the best place to ask the pilots if the sacrifices are worth it... most of us have started to pay the dues at regionals not too long ago, hoping to get on with majors or fractionals one day... if that happens for me, obviously this will all be totally worth it to me (because I imagine it will be a lot better once I get to a major, and I also know I could end up being wrong about this). But until then, unless somone's goal is to stay at a regional forever, how can they answer your question?

rickair7777 09-27-2008 08:03 PM


Originally Posted by proskuneho (Post 469696)
Thanks for all the feedback guys. Keep it coming.

This will surely sound like a dumb question and common knowledge to many of you, but aren't the major airlines facing a HUGE (much larger than normal) number of retirements over the next decade? Will that not cause upward mobility in the regionals also?

This is a myth perpetuated by certain business interest who peddle training and other services to entry-level pilots. We may again see a shortage of entry-level regional pilots willing to work for $20K, but I doubt we will see a large shortage at the majors...especially if oil goes up and stays there. A few majors (Airways East and CAL) do have a lot of old guys though.

The only glimmer of good news career-wise is that the lending companies have finally realized the fallacy of loaning a 19 yo $100K+ so he can get a job paying $20K. Going forward, we may see fewer low-time children and more self-funded adults entering the business.

Actually it would be interesting to get hold of the demographics of all the US major airlines and generate a year-by-year retirement count.

dojetdriver 09-27-2008 08:10 PM


Originally Posted by proskuneho (Post 469696)
Thanks for all the feedback guys. Keep it coming.

This will surely sound like a dumb question and common knowledge to many of you, but aren't the major airlines facing a HUGE (much larger than normal) number of retirements over the next decade? Will that not cause upward mobility in the regionals also?

Tough question to give a good answer too. Age 65 changed a lot of the retirement numbers. And it's really just too difficult to gauge what will happen. If airlines continue to park aircraft, it could remain "level" so to speak.

And this could cause a serious thread drift there, but OTHER variables that could affect the situation. When, or more if, there is another hiring wave, there are plenty of guys who have been slugging it out in the regionals (and various other civilian backgrounds) since 9/11 waiting for that spot at a major. Almost ALL these guys are going to be pretty qualified. Meaning, LOTS of PIC, multiple type ratings, LCA experience, etc.

Depending on what happens in the short term, you will ALSO have a high number of military pilots (also VERY qualified) hitting the market. Before anybody analyzes this comment, please think twice. I don't want to see this thread get closed.

Now, of course we ALL know people that got hired at (insert legacy here) with low time and not much real experience to speak of, and haven't really been in this industry very long. Yep, it happens. But those guys are usually the minority of a new hire class.

kalyx522 09-27-2008 08:14 PM


Originally Posted by Boomer (Post 469684)
Checkrides, medicals, furloughs, bankruptcies, and everything you do is on tape (and the FAA's always listening...)

There are lots of things that will end your airline career faster than you can say "What do you mean I was swerving, officer?" Some are under your control; some are totally beyond your control, such as diabetes, a firecracker in the eye, or the price of Jet-A. You've heard the stories. Try saying that about an office job- Even a bad surgeon can kill a few people and not have to go back to kindergarten.

How did I forget to mention this on my list. This is a big downside for me too, and I feel it always in the back of my mind - that threat of being fired, getting certificate action and/or ending my career. especially since I work for a non-union regional and have zero legal protection. I don't think it's as simple as, "just dont screw up." even the really good pilots make mistakes sometimes (and I'm not even that good.)

proskuneho 09-27-2008 08:20 PM


Originally Posted by rickair7777 (Post 469702)
This is a myth perpetuated by certain business interest who peddle training and other services to entry-level pilots. We may again see a shortage of entry-level regional pilots willing to work for $20K, but I doubt we will see a large shortage at the majors...especially if oil goes up and stays there. A few majors (Airways East and CAL) do have a lot of old guys though.

Actually it would be interesting to get hold of the demographics of all the US major airlines and generate a year-by-year retirement count.

Most of my management experience was with a national company that peddles training and other services to entry-level pilots. Perhaps each of us school directors were misled by our CEO and President at national meetings into baiting flight training prospects? I'm honestly not trying to argue, I'm just curious to know why you feel that the reports of a tidal wave of Vietnam vet era retirements is bogus?:confused:

If it is a bogus rumor meant to spike training, then I am a sucker who left a decent paying management job (with even better potential) to pursue a low paying job with the hopes that I might be able to recover my losses in a reasonable time frame.:(

kalyx522 09-27-2008 08:29 PM


Originally Posted by proskuneho (Post 469711)
Most of my management experience was with a national company that peddles training and other services to entry-level pilots. Perhaps each of us school directors were misled by our CEO and President at national meetings into baiting flight training prospects? I'm honestly not trying to argue, I'm just curious to know why you feel that the reports of a tidal wave of Vietnam vet era retirements is bogus?:confused:

It may not necessarily be bogus.. but even if there were a "tidal wave" of retirements coming up, there is, in fact, a over-supply of pilots at the regional level to cover that. And that is the problem, like dojetdriver pointed out... there are thousands of regional guys sitting around right now who are or soon will be qualified and competitive for the majors. A lot more regional guys than there are spots available at the majors, even with the retirements.

Boomer 09-27-2008 08:29 PM


Originally Posted by dojetdriver (Post 469704)
Age 65 changed a lot of the retirement numbers. And it's really just too difficult to gauge what will happen. If airlines continue to park aircraft, it could remain "level" so to speak.

That's another one I missed on my worst-case scenario back in 1999:
  • September 11th
  • Pilot contracts thrown out in Federal Bankruptcy Court
  • Pensions eliminated
  • Fuel at $140/bbl
  • Age 65
Go for it based on your best-case scenario, but only if you can survive your worst-case scenario times 20% worser than you can imagine. :D

rickair7777 09-27-2008 08:31 PM


Originally Posted by dojetdriver (Post 469704)
Depending on what happens in the short term, you will ALSO have a high number of military pilots (also VERY qualified) hitting the market. Before anybody analyzes this comment, please think twice. I don't want to see this thread get closed.

From the perspective of a senior military guy who is well-connected with what is going on at the highest levels, this statement is completely incorrect.

The DoD plans on at least a 50-year horizon, and there are PLENTY of manned aircraft, some not even in production, in the long-term plan.

A gradual shift to more UAV's will largely supplement, not replace, manned aircraft. It will take an extensive trial period with UAV's before they are fully capable and trusted.

There will be fewer manned aircraft, but they are designed to be FAR more reliable...today, the airplane needs more downtime than the pilot, so you only need one crew per tactical airplane. In the future, the airplane will operate around the clock requiring multiple pilots in shifts.

Anyone who is old enough to read this will not be affected hordes of displaced military pilots searching for civilian jobs. Even when it happens it will be gradual, and many displaced military pilots will stay in for retirement anyway.

The biggest displacement in sight is the ANG F-16 squadrons...most of those pilots are part-time anyway and already have another job.

de727ups 09-27-2008 08:33 PM

Whether you consider yourself a "sucker" not, is your business.

The outlook of aviation careers is always a moving target. It cycles up and down with the economy. Other factors play a part. 9/11 and age 65. I think we are seeing a perfect storm of badness right now. But any academy which recruits people with ads that specify "Vietnam vet era retirements" is clearly grasping at straws to make a buck. It's sad that people buy off on that.

Would you care to name the academy you worked for?

rickair7777 09-27-2008 08:37 PM


Originally Posted by proskuneho (Post 469711)
Most of my management experience was with a national company that peddles training and other services to entry-level pilots. Perhaps each of us school directors were misled by our CEO and President at national meetings into baiting flight training prospects? I'm honestly not trying to argue, I'm just curious to know why you feel that the reports of a tidal wave of Vietnam vet era retirements is bogus?:confused:

If it is a bogus rumor meant to spike training, then I am a sucker who left a decent paying management job (with even better potential) to pursue a low paying job with the hopes that I might be able to recover my losses in a reasonable time frame.:(

This rumor has been a staple since the day the vietnam war ended...I was told the same thing when I was in your shoes more than a decade ago. So far, I think more folks have been furloughed than hired.

But like I said, it would be interesting to see what the demographics look like today, after taking into account age 65.

Boomer 09-27-2008 08:41 PM


Originally Posted by rickair7777 (Post 469719)
Anyone who is old enough to read this will not be affected hordes of displaced military pilots searching for civilian jobs. Even when it happens it will be gradual, and many displaced military pilots will stay in for retirement anyway.

There were 6 military pilots in my regional new-hire class. Five went back on duty (voluntarily) within the first year. Regional pay was that bad, or the military pay was that good. I'll admit it may be a different story at the majors.

proskuneho 09-27-2008 08:53 PM


Originally Posted by de727ups (Post 469720)
Whether you consider yourself a "sucker" not, is your business.

The outlook of aviation careers is always a moving target. It cycles up and down with the economy. Other factors play a part. 9/11 and age 65. I think we are seeing a perfect storm of badness right now. But any academy which recruits people with ads that specify "Vietnam vet era retirements" is clearly grasping at straws to make a buck. It's sad that people buy off on that.

Would you care to name the academy you worked for?

It probably would not be professional for me to name the company, but it is a nationwide flight school. As far as I can remember, none of our advertising ever hinted at the possibility of retirements. I do remember discussing the future of the business over dinner with the President of the company, and he discussed the retirement wave with excitement for the opportunities that it would create for everyone. I was never instructed to discuss the retirements with potential career students at my school.
Although I thought there was much room for improvement at that company, I do think that they were NOT deceptive in their advertising (unlike another national flight school that used to actually "guarantee" airline jobs, now they just guarantee interviews).
I just felt like a sucker for a moment there because I feel too old to be stuck at "entry level" for a long time. 33/almost 34 is not very old, but I don't want to spend the rest of my younger years paying dues for something that has no future. I love flying tremendously, but I just don't want to be poor for ten years. If I finish my MBA, than maybe I can get a more secure job and just buy my own plane. Maybe with the combination of my aviation management experience and my growing flight experience I should seek a job as a 135 manager? That's why I am on this forum - to get feedback to make an informed decision.

dojetdriver 09-27-2008 08:59 PM


Originally Posted by rickair7777 (Post 469719)
From the perspective of a senior military guy who is well-connected with what is going on at the highest levels, this statement is completely incorrect.

The DoD plans on at least a 50-year horizon, and there are PLENTY of manned aircraft, some not even in production, in the long-term plan.

A gradual shift to more UAV's will largely supplement, not replace, manned aircraft. It will take an extensive trial period with UAV's before they are fully capable and trusted.

There will be fewer manned aircraft, but they are designed to be FAR more reliable...today, the airplane needs more downtime than the pilot, so you only need one crew per tactical airplane. In the future, the airplane will operate around the clock requiring multiple pilots in shifts.

Anyone who is old enough to read this will not be affected hordes of displaced military pilots searching for civilian jobs. Even when it happens it will be gradual, and many displaced military pilots will stay in for retirement anyway.

The biggest displacement in sight is the ANG F-16 squadrons...most of those pilots are part-time anyway and already have another job.

Wow Rick, you really ran with that one, didn't you?

So what if I rephrase, it. Instead of "A LOT", just make it "you will ALSO have to compete with military pilots".

Is that more to your liking? I never said "hordes".

Boomer 09-27-2008 09:13 PM


Originally Posted by proskuneho (Post 469726)
I just felt like a sucker for a moment there because I feel too old to be stuck at "entry level" for a long time. 33/almost 34 is not very old, but I don't want to spend the rest of my younger years paying dues for something that has no future. I love flying tremendously, but I just don't want to be poor for ten years.

Nobody wants to be poor for ten years, and you may not be. But ask yourself "What If..." before you quit your day job.

I love flying too, but I'm currently "paying" $213.79 per hour of CRJ time. If/When I make Captain I'll start paying $12.50 per hour. This worthless number is based on my old income (2000) minus my current airline income and divided by my time in the CRJ. You can work the numbers a dozen ways and you'll still be rolling the dice...

ToiletDuck 09-27-2008 09:53 PM

I like my job because it's easy going, requires little physical activity, flexible on schedules, and obviously the travel benefits. Overall it's a super easy job once your butt hits the seat. I like how it does manage to test your skills from time to time keeping you sharp. You have the option to make it as easy or difficult as you'd like.

What I don't like is the beginning FO pay and not being based at home. However the later is my own choice. Overall life has been great and I have no reason to wish I did something else. I might start a business or two and possible give up commercial aviation one day. However I'll never quit flying. It's been too much of a blast.

The grass is always greener on the other side though. When I worked on the ranch I wanted to fly and now that I spend my time flying I wish I was able to work on the ranch more and spend more time hunting and fishing.

Florida Flyer 09-27-2008 09:55 PM


Originally Posted by kalyx522 (Post 469698)
... but at the same time, it's not very fulfilling like it would be for a police officer, doctor, etc. who make the world a better place. All you do is tranport people from one place to another, and as long as you do your job right, you made no difference. I know some people don't care about that, but personally, I wish my job involved making a difference in someone's life, even in a small way.

Aww Kalyx I wouldn't say that. I don't think we're merely transporting people from point A to point B. We're bringing familes across the country together for weddings, funerals, graduations, etc. Perhaps we're the unseen instrument in the multi million dollar business deal that was closed only when the two parties met in person. The list goes on. Everyone who boards an airplane does so for a reason...and most of the times, for quite significant reasons. To imply that our jobs make no difference in people's lives is a terrible affront to our profession. Unlike other professions (doctor, police officer, etc.) that receive immediate feedback from people requiring their services, we often do not know the end result of doing our jobs. But simply take a few moments and look around the baggage claim next time you finish a trip, and see if you can find the lady waiting for her husband to return home, or the grandparents waiting for the grandkids...all possible because we decided to show up to work that day.

SkyHigh 09-27-2008 10:05 PM

Read on
 
I just kept reading post after post of nearly the exact same complaints and observations that I have had about aviation. My posts are not all that different from what many others here have written.

No pay.

Lack of job satisfaction.

Destruction of personal life.

Dead -End profession.

It is not your imagination. The grass is greener.

Skyhigh

BURflyer 09-27-2008 10:19 PM

DONT get into airline flying. You'd be amazed, a 6 month regional FO complain about the same things as a 20 year mainline CA. Don't get me wrong, I still think this is the best job you can have, exciting, you meet many people. Not the same as your 9-5 job with the same coworkers for the next decade. However, it's such a selfish profession and it's just bad for family and personal life. I think most of us put up with the BS because it's all worth it when you close the doors and get ready to blast off into the sky in you CRJ or 747, but the reality is that you can pretty much get the same satisfaction by flying a 172, you don't need to be an airline pilot.

SaltyDog 09-27-2008 10:34 PM


Originally Posted by proskuneho (Post 469606)
Hello all. I am a career changer. After a decade in management, the flying bug is really getting me. I am well aware of the ups and downs of the industry. I also understand the dues that the average pilot pays to earn the "dream job". I have already taken a huge pay cut to become a CFI/CFII/MEI, and anticipate another drastic cut whenever the regionals are hiring non-furloughed pilots again! Considering the fact that so many people leave other careers to chase the dream to fly, it must be worth the sacrifices!
Or is it? You are all aware of the stereotype of the whiny pilot, but I know that many pilots have valid reasons to complain. I am curious what many of you think, especially if you left a better paying (and more stable career) to do this.
Why do you like your job? :)
If you are not happy, why?:rolleyes:
My opinion? I have got my first pilot certificate in 1996, and I just now have over 900 hrs with 155 multi. You don't fly much when you manage the people that are flying. For me, flying is amazing. There is awesome satisfaction in a nice instrument approach that leads to a greased landing. There is so much beauty, freedom, and excitement. What better office?

Everyone has valid comments. I left the military when the majors were starting to furlough. Ended up at 13K a year with a group of fellow mil drivers at COEX. All of us have moved on to bigger iron. I was about your age leaving the Military. Was it worth it? Imagine all in my original class would say yes. Was it all easy? Nope. No job is, so it was a wash in my book.
I have a disease that is only fulfilled by flying airplanes for a living <bg>. I accept the pitfalls as I would if I was an accountant I suppose.
I say give it a whirl as you already have demonstrated the disease and should follow a professional flying career in the cockpit. That may be 135, 121 etc. At least you won't be saying "I wish I had...." If it doesn't work out, you will suceed anyway just like Skyhigh since we are generally successful and self starting folks. Best of luck.

downinthegroove 09-27-2008 10:36 PM

I call BS. I know that a 20+ mainline CA is not complaining about the same issues. You are whining.

It is a great treat to have the thrust and the power behind you. Go work for a living.

Wear boots and pour concrete for less wage and many time the work.

This industry will never be what it once was but it is still the greatest job out there. It is convoluted by a generation that thinks they are entitled.

Go get a real job and work for a living. I grew up with this and live it.

HercDriver130 09-28-2008 04:25 AM

I dunno about that... go over to the CARGO forum.. and the Brown and Purple guys complain just as much or more as the guys here..

I do know that AA's youngest pilot currently on line is 33..... hell they have tons of 20 year FO's over there.... and I believe in MIA may even have a 29 year FO on the 777...... but i bet his QOL is "A" number 1.


Originally Posted by downinthegroove (Post 469766)
I call BS. I know that a 20+ mainline CA is not complaining about the same issues. You are whining.

It is a great treat to have the thrust and the power behind you. Go work for a living.

Wear boots and pour concrete for less wage and many time the work.

This industry will never be what it once was but it is still the greatest job out there. It is convoluted by a generation that thinks they are entitled.

Go get a real job and work for a living. I grew up with this and live it.


Flyby1206 09-28-2008 05:16 AM


Originally Posted by proskuneho (Post 469726)
I love flying tremendously, but I just don't want to be poor for ten years. If I finish my MBA, than maybe I can get a more secure job and just buy my own plane. Maybe with the combination of my aviation management experience and my growing flight experience I should seek a job as a 135 manager? That's why I am on this forum - to get feedback to make an informed decision.

Flying is a great hobby and a fun job, but you have to go through a lot of poverty and bad QOL and a ton of good luck to get to a point where you are left seat 777 making $200k/yr. Some people never make it to the "top" and you have to be prepared for that as well.

DashGirl 09-28-2008 07:53 AM

I can't add to why I like my job because all the good stuff has already been mentioned..But I will say this about disliking my job...

All of the associated BS (company treats you poorly, underpaid, FAA etc..) that comes with being an airline pilot makes it very very difficult to maintain a positive attitude about my work. This even despite knowing I have one of the coolest jobs in the world. I was very positive about my career when I started out. Now I'm not so thrilled about being a pilot anymore..The job has stolen enough joy out of being in a cockpit that I now wonder if I should do something else and fly only for fun...

I imagine I'll keep pluggin along until I can get a sweet corporate gig at my local airport. Then I'll have even more time off to think about building an income in some other form...

As much as I love to fly, flying 121 is very stressful..It seems that even when the industry is doing well it's a constant struggle to keep your job as there are so many ways to lose it..This is perhaps the single most aggravating aspect of it all. I feel like the industry is designed in a way where a pilot must consistently face forces that are actively trying to relieve you of your job and certificate at every turn. It's like every leg is a check-ride. When you finish one uneventfully you pass go and may take off on the next one. I don't like the simplest of human errors being just cause for you to loose your job or get suspended even when no harm was done. The industry is woefully over-regulated. In my opinion it is so to the point where I have to wonder if the over-abundance of convoluted regulatory issues in itself makes things less safe...

Buschpilot 09-28-2008 08:10 AM

I'm one of the guys that's working on getting out of this flying business. Here's my take on it:

I had a real job and hated it, so I came to flying (this was 10 years ago). It's been a really fun ride getting hours, meeting people, and drinking beer. I started at my regional 6 years ago. It's probably been the biggest disappointment I've had in my career. I feel like I'm getting professionally dumber, and am just a number in the system. Maybe some people are ok with that, but I feel more motivated to continue to accomplish things in my life. I can honestly say that the only challenge I've had is trying to figure out how to get out.

In 6 years here, I'm still an FO with no upgrade in sight. I thought it was just around the corner, but then fuel hit new records. Let me tell you, being a professional Pilot with 10 years experience making less than 40k can be very frustrating. I came into this job knowing that it would take some time and some sacrifice, but with no light at the end of the [very long] tunnel it's time to pull the plug. I'm missing out on my earning years, spending too much time away from my family, and that doesn't fit with my goals for life and retirement.

Those are the bad things, in my very humble opinion. I'm sure others will readily disagree.

The good things:

Lots of great people work here. I've met some really interesting folks along the way. It's also nice to come to work and know exactly what's expected of you. Which makes the job easy. It really is an easy job (when things go right). I think it's healthy to spend a little bit of time away from the family and do what you like. 3 days would be ok. 4 days is too much. No office politics - which is good and bad. Try working with someone who has no social skills because the job doesn't demand it. That happens, and can be tough. At the same time, you can call a spade a spade :). I never see my boss, either. That's cool. I wouldn't change the experience that I've gotten from this field for anything. Pilots in general are more pessimistic on the business, and tend to pay more attention to the details of the business than other employee groups. This gives us a more down to earth perspective than other work groups that get overly optimistic and tend to guzzle the kool aid.

The best job I had was flying a Navajo in Alaska. We worked hard, flew hard, and played hard. It was also the most money I ever made. THAT was good, challenging, and rewarding flying with some absolutely amazing people.

I'm not sure what's going to happen in my quest to move on. Trying to quit has probably been the hardest thing I've ever done (odd, for a guy disappointed in the field, huh?). I guess that means that I like the job too much (and have too much invested) to just walk away. Take that as a good thing. In the mean time, I attend Grad school which offers me the mental challenge that I need (that the job doesn't offer). I guess what I'm saying is, you'll probably need to find a balance. Coming from management, I think you'll find the work to be a bit dull after a while. Once you've met your goals (which happens), what else are you going to shoot for? Outside stimulation may be the only answer, and it can be hard to multitask considering the schedule the regionals run.

Lots of people do this job, and lots of them like it. That says something. At the same time, lots of people have been very disappointed in the results. That says something, too. It's not even close to a perfect field. Keep doing your research and, if anything, just jump in with a good backup plan in hand. Like my Dad says 'if you don't do it now, you probably never will'.

ToiletDuck 09-28-2008 08:30 AM


Originally Posted by SkyHigh (Post 469753)
I just kept reading post after post of nearly the exact same complaints and observations that I have had about aviation. My posts are not all that different from what many others here have written.

No pay.

Lack of job satisfaction.

Destruction of personal life.

Dead -End profession.

It is not your imagination. The grass is greener.

Skyhigh

But there is job satisfaction, I enjoy my 10 days off at a time so the personal life is nice, and there's no where to go but up. That's what seniority guarantees you. Why spend time here if it's so dead end? Didn't I recently see you asking about an airline you wanted to get hired at?

Rascal 09-28-2008 09:02 AM


Originally Posted by withthatsaid182 (Post 469646)
I dislike my job because:

I'm on the low end of the seniority list i.e. the last guy.

Reserve is no fun.

You are always in a hotel during those times you really need to be home.

I, along with everyone around me try to do an honest to goodness helluva job and still get paid poorly.

Taking the bus sucks.

I have to set my alarm for 0330 a lot these days.

I like my job because:

I sit on the couch a lot and then often go fly around.

At 37,000 feet I can see a load of cool looking constellations.

There's nothing like cruising around drinking coffee and seeing those constellations with your feet up and seat back.

Flying through the weather and not worrying about a your one and only engine failing, or getting too much ice, or not being able to get above/around weather.

I meet a lot of interesting people with some interesting stories.

Instead of calling them thrust reversers I call them "Buckets".

It's as close as I am going to get to being a pirate.

I get a paycheck to do it all.

Paycheck....? At regional? That's a good one!

ToiletDuck 09-28-2008 09:12 AM

It's more like a tax relief :P

DashGirl 09-28-2008 10:24 AM

No no no...it's an economic stimulus package...:D

PittsburghDude 09-28-2008 10:52 AM

the main thing to dislike is wondering if your going to have a job in 6 months, a year, 3 years from now? gets old laying in bed every night hoping that the mess that this country is in is directly connected to whether or not you will be able to keep the career that you love.

usmc-sgt 09-28-2008 11:16 AM

Likes-
The people

Landing (in the Dash 8 you never master it and it always gives you something new to work on)

Some of the great approaches out there

Being able to go most anywhere most anytime for free (even though I never go anywhere but home with my family)

Some fun overnights with a great crew

Doing an overnight near my home and having my wife meet me at the hotel for a night out

The visuals, I see some of the most interesting and awe inspiring things that I cant even explain and that a picture cant even do justice

Flying in general. I truly enjoy flying (although VASTLY prefer flying GA out of my small grass strip) I rarely do not look forward to starting the day when I wake up in the morning at the hotel. Of course I would rather be home but I do not dread going to work. The crew I fly with has a great impact on this.

Being admired by people who do not know any better. Most of my friends and wifes co workers are very impressed that I am a pilot and are very curious of what I do and envious of the 100K that I pull in while traveling to exotic locations and working 12 days per month. I dont tell them the truth unless they are my close friends.

Flying new types. Every new plane I fly is a joy at first and I am always impressed and eager to tell people that when you transition from type to type the actual flying part is no difficult a transition then when you were a private pilot switching from a 152 to a 172 to a seminole. Flying is flying and once you are in the air whether it is a CRJ or a 747 the same principles apply.

Cons-
THE PAY, I make less than nothing and havent made this little since I worked at a fry dough stand in the 8th grade and even then it was close

The long days with no pay. With EWR always having edc times when we do not board the pax I will have an average of 5 hours some days over the course of the day of sitting in the airplane without the pax boarded when I am not getting paid.

The job can be extremely mundane and I at only 1 year in do not feel I can necessarily get any better at my job. I do the same basic tasks and do them well and dont see how I can do them any better. Sure of course I will gain more experience which is the whole point but after 700 hours in the plane I have a basic grasp of its capabilities and my tasks will never change. Walkaround, flows, entering data into the FMS and running checklist. Seriously, how long does it take to master the 15 tasks that I do on a given flight?

The people. I can work with the same CA for the month who is the last person I would want to ever talk to let alone sit in a cubicle for 130+ hours per month with.

Overnights with horrible crews (see above) where you go to the hotel bar and drink alone.

Commuting. I have one of the easiest commutes of anyone out there and I bring it upon myself but it still sucks the life out of me.

Dealing with the company and crew sched.

and of course paying 90 bucks for a medical every year that I may or may not pass and will end my career indefinately and the FAA who cant wait to pull my certs when I turn to a wrong heading or the AP doesnt intercept the loc and I miss it.

This list could go on forever but most has been said already

DYNASTY HVY 09-28-2008 12:06 PM

I like my job because I get to fly a big shiny jet with a flower on the tail.:D
Dislikes -- Wish they would start serving kool aid again .


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