View Poll Results: Flat tax support
yes
45
81.82%
no
10
18.18%
Voters: 55. You may not vote on this poll
Flat Tax poll
09-30-2008, 03:01 PM
#21
Blue Skies
Joined APC: Aug 2006
Position: C208B
Posts: 778
I get more for my money because where I come from everyone earns more, but everything also costs more.
Add on top of that, the extremely low dollar in regards to the high Norwegian currency, I actually get an exchange rate of 5:1, instead of 8:1 just some years ago.
So, if I work at home, and save up a few years worth of full time work as a security guard, I can come over here and had the equivalent of working several years at college-education levels.
That's why I'm taking my education here, because this is a cheap country to live in when I take my money with me.
Now I will admit, I do not have a bachelor in business, nor do I have an extremely high knowledge of all the workings I'm discussing here, and I'm only as good as my sources.
However, I do still firmly believe, that the current system in the US at least in regards to the medical situation is not as it should be by a long shot.
You say the transplant lines are shorter over here in regards to countries like Canada, now is that because your system is more efficient? Or is it simply because the people that usually get sick and needs a transplant don't actually have the money to cover it, and therefore the upper middle class is sat firmly in their chair of health insurance and get all they need from the sacrifice of those that don't. (correct me on this if I'm wrong).
Do any of you actually say that, the way the system is now is just perfect, is there nothing you would change?
In regards to actual education, social education if you'd like, including literacy, and in regards to health care like life expectancy, and finally financial freedom; Norway has been ranked nr1 on these items 6 years in a row by the United Nations, previously held by Canada 7 years in a row, now held by Iceland for 2007.
Human Development Index - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
Yes the USA is on a larger scale, at least in regards to Norway, in some degree in regards to Canada, and I'm not here to raise my home country up on a pedestal, even though I can't help being partly subjective. However, if it does work, can't it work on a larger scale as well? Can someone tell me why it would not work in the USA?
You say cost of tuition would go up when you add government influence, I can give you the exact opposite proof from where I'm from, where it's 100% government influence.
Yes you can't just do a radical change, and it's hard discussion this without bringing in abstract terms and theories, but is it all that bad?
Add on top of that, the extremely low dollar in regards to the high Norwegian currency, I actually get an exchange rate of 5:1, instead of 8:1 just some years ago.
So, if I work at home, and save up a few years worth of full time work as a security guard, I can come over here and had the equivalent of working several years at college-education levels.
That's why I'm taking my education here, because this is a cheap country to live in when I take my money with me.
Now I will admit, I do not have a bachelor in business, nor do I have an extremely high knowledge of all the workings I'm discussing here, and I'm only as good as my sources.
However, I do still firmly believe, that the current system in the US at least in regards to the medical situation is not as it should be by a long shot.
You say the transplant lines are shorter over here in regards to countries like Canada, now is that because your system is more efficient? Or is it simply because the people that usually get sick and needs a transplant don't actually have the money to cover it, and therefore the upper middle class is sat firmly in their chair of health insurance and get all they need from the sacrifice of those that don't. (correct me on this if I'm wrong).
Do any of you actually say that, the way the system is now is just perfect, is there nothing you would change?
In regards to actual education, social education if you'd like, including literacy, and in regards to health care like life expectancy, and finally financial freedom; Norway has been ranked nr1 on these items 6 years in a row by the United Nations, previously held by Canada 7 years in a row, now held by Iceland for 2007.
Human Development Index - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
Yes the USA is on a larger scale, at least in regards to Norway, in some degree in regards to Canada, and I'm not here to raise my home country up on a pedestal, even though I can't help being partly subjective. However, if it does work, can't it work on a larger scale as well? Can someone tell me why it would not work in the USA?
You say cost of tuition would go up when you add government influence, I can give you the exact opposite proof from where I'm from, where it's 100% government influence.
Yes you can't just do a radical change, and it's hard discussion this without bringing in abstract terms and theories, but is it all that bad?
09-30-2008, 03:34 PM
#22
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Nov 2006
Position: 767 FO
Posts: 8,047
Didn't say transplant I said by pass. But transplant works, almost anyone who needs a transplant can get one. As opposed to Canadians and Mexicans who come here for them. No one says our health care system is perfect but the profit motive does make us lead the world in medical advances. Not too long ago there where more MRI setups in any of the top 30 US cities than in all of Canada. As a bonus it does provide the best care for illegal immigrants my insurance money can buy.
Education no argument 40 years ago we decided to ensure equality of outcome as opposed to equality of opportunity. Today social engineering is much more important than algebra. Your homogeneous society doesn’t require holding others back to make sure no one is left behind like ours does.
Don't worry about raising your country on a pedestal, nice place I have been there. I don't want to live there.
Education no argument 40 years ago we decided to ensure equality of outcome as opposed to equality of opportunity. Today social engineering is much more important than algebra. Your homogeneous society doesn’t require holding others back to make sure no one is left behind like ours does.
Don't worry about raising your country on a pedestal, nice place I have been there. I don't want to live there.
09-30-2008, 03:44 PM
#23
Blue Skies
Joined APC: Aug 2006
Position: C208B
Posts: 778
OK, so for the millions without health insurance, how does your world-leading health care provide for them?
Are the documentaries on US health care so biased (not the Michael Moore kind), that the image provided is false?
I've gotten the impression that a rather large percentage of the US population without health insurance basically has no real opportunity for adequate health care.
No insurance sends you to a bad hospital, no insurance will basically put you in debt for life if you have a serious illness.
A friend of mine had stomach pains, and was at the emergency room for testing, she went out of there with bills of around $5 000, how can someone with an income of $20 000 a year support those kinds of bills if they have to foot the entire thing themselves?
Is efficient and affordable health care only for the rich?
(I see this topic was about flat tax, and I've totally de-railed it now, sorry about that)
Are the documentaries on US health care so biased (not the Michael Moore kind), that the image provided is false?
I've gotten the impression that a rather large percentage of the US population without health insurance basically has no real opportunity for adequate health care.
No insurance sends you to a bad hospital, no insurance will basically put you in debt for life if you have a serious illness.
A friend of mine had stomach pains, and was at the emergency room for testing, she went out of there with bills of around $5 000, how can someone with an income of $20 000 a year support those kinds of bills if they have to foot the entire thing themselves?
Is efficient and affordable health care only for the rich?
(I see this topic was about flat tax, and I've totally de-railed it now, sorry about that)
09-30-2008, 04:03 PM
#24
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Nov 2006
Position: 767 FO
Posts: 8,047
Did your friend have health insurance? I doubt she has to support the entire thing herself. That is the point, the $5,000 bill was that high because the emergency room has to provide free health care to any one that shows up. How do you think they cover that? Think the hospital just says sorry doctor you only get paid 73% this month because 27% of your patients didn't pay? No they over charge your friend to make up the difference.
The rather large number (without insurance) you hear about is anywhere from 30 to 40 million. What you don't hear is 12-20 million of those cited are illegal aliens (who drive up the cost of insurance and health care for the rest of us). Another large percentage are single 20 to 30 year olds who decide insurance is a bad buy. We could spend a week talking about government mandates and how they make the cost of insurance equal for all but affordable for none.
The rather large number (without insurance) you hear about is anywhere from 30 to 40 million. What you don't hear is 12-20 million of those cited are illegal aliens (who drive up the cost of insurance and health care for the rest of us). Another large percentage are single 20 to 30 year olds who decide insurance is a bad buy. We could spend a week talking about government mandates and how they make the cost of insurance equal for all but affordable for none.
09-30-2008, 04:16 PM
#26
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Jun 2008
Position: USAF
Posts: 1,398
I would also add that many, many malpractice lawyers have a huge impact on the price of doctor's services. I have a friend who was an anaesthesiologist and his mal-practice insurance was in the $100k plus per year (!).
Also... many people believe health-care is a right not a market item.
by the same nature health-care is a right, housing should be a right as well (as many would contend it is a basic need)
- just to add to the conversation..... Why should I, who takes good care of my health and doesn't smoke, have to pay the same as someone who smokes, drinks, eats fast food everyday, etc.....?
Also... many people believe health-care is a right not a market item.
by the same nature health-care is a right, housing should be a right as well (as many would contend it is a basic need)
- just to add to the conversation..... Why should I, who takes good care of my health and doesn't smoke, have to pay the same as someone who smokes, drinks, eats fast food everyday, etc.....?
09-30-2008, 04:29 PM
#27
Blue Skies
Joined APC: Aug 2006
Position: C208B
Posts: 778
Originally Posted by FDXLAG
Did your friend have health insurance? I doubt she has to support the entire thing herself. That is the point, the $5,000 bill was that high because the emergency room has to provide free health care to any one that shows up. How do you think they cover that? Think the hospital just says sorry doctor you only get paid 73% this month because 27% of your patients didn't pay? No they over charge your friend to make up the difference.
The rather large number (without insurance) you hear about is anywhere from 30 to 40 million. What you don't hear is 12-20 million of those cited are illegal aliens (who drive up the cost of insurance and health care for the rest of us). Another large percentage are single 20 to 30 year olds who decide insurance is a bad buy. We could spend a week talking about government mandates and how they make the cost of insurance equal for all but affordable for none.
The rather large number (without insurance) you hear about is anywhere from 30 to 40 million. What you don't hear is 12-20 million of those cited are illegal aliens (who drive up the cost of insurance and health care for the rest of us). Another large percentage are single 20 to 30 year olds who decide insurance is a bad buy. We could spend a week talking about government mandates and how they make the cost of insurance equal for all but affordable for none.
So, if a guy who doesn't get health insurance from work, and can't afford one, how much would he have to pay for the same procedure you reckon?
He would still get an emergency room bill?
09-30-2008, 04:35 PM
#28
Blue Skies
Joined APC: Aug 2006
Position: C208B
Posts: 778
Originally Posted by ryan1234
I would also add that many, many malpractice lawyers have a huge impact on the price of doctor's services. I have a friend who was an anaesthesiologist and his mal-practice insurance was in the $100k plus per year (!).
Also... many people believe health-care is a right not a market item.
by the same nature health-care is a right, housing should be a right as well (as many would contend it is a basic need)
- just to add to the conversation..... Why should I, who takes good care of my health and doesn't smoke, have to pay the same as someone who smokes, drinks, eats fast food everyday, etc.....?
Also... many people believe health-care is a right not a market item.
by the same nature health-care is a right, housing should be a right as well (as many would contend it is a basic need)
- just to add to the conversation..... Why should I, who takes good care of my health and doesn't smoke, have to pay the same as someone who smokes, drinks, eats fast food everyday, etc.....?
Why can everyone sue everyone over the slightest thing and win? What in the American legal system makes this so relatively easy in regards to other countries?
09-30-2008, 04:38 PM
#29
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Mar 2008
Posts: 2,919
Originally Posted by ryan1234
- just to add to the conversation..... Why should I, who takes good care of my health and doesn't smoke, have to pay the same as someone who smokes, drinks, eats fast food everyday, etc.....?
I don't agree with a socialized healthcare system because, no matter what, the overall quality of healthcare will go down. The references to other European countries who have socialized healthcare, and more overall government programs, also are taxed much heavily for it. The majority of people in this country would rather pay less taxes and be free to invest/spend their money as they see fit.
In your example, someone who is a smoker/drinker and doesn't take care of themselves should, and probably will, spend more on health insurance down the line.
In a nutshell, I have all the pride in the world for our country, but in terms of management, our government cannot regulate/control an industry as well as professionals in that industry.
09-30-2008, 04:47 PM
#30
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Sep 2007
Posts: 288
Originally Posted by Photon
Don't forget practically all the Scandinavian countries.
Believe it or not, letting the government take charge of running the basic human needs things like schools and hospitals actually do work.
Compare it to communist regimes all you like, but the fact is that the countries with these systems have the highest standards of literacy, living, education, crime etc.
Might be hard to steer the steam liner USA in that direction very quickly, but looking at things like health care and schools over here, it can't get much worse
Believe it or not, letting the government take charge of running the basic human needs things like schools and hospitals actually do work.
Compare it to communist regimes all you like, but the fact is that the countries with these systems have the highest standards of literacy, living, education, crime etc.
Might be hard to steer the steam liner USA in that direction very quickly, but looking at things like health care and schools over here, it can't get much worse
Have you ever lived in this Northern European Utopia of yours??? Can’t afford a house until you’re about 40, so everyone lives with their parents until then. Want to go out to a restaurant? You can’t afford it unless you’re rich or your company pays for it. How about a bar?? Did you know most Norwegians get drunk before they go to the clubs?? That’s because it’s about $30 to get in and $15 per drink. At that, the clubs can barely afford to pay their taxes. Need an operation??? Better hope there are bed spaces, otherwise you loose! Did the doctor screw up and remove the wrong leg during an amputation??? Oh well, he’ll get the right one next time… oh, and you can’t sue, it’s against the law. Ever wonder how the politicians and their family and friends get immediate service with the best doctors and the average citizens get whatever is available whenever it’s available??? That’s because in socialist countries politicians are the Aristocracy, they write the laws, they control the money, and they control the judiciary. There is very little difference between socialism and feudalism. Just give the ignorant masses enough to keep them from revolting and yourself in power.
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