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Originally Posted by Photon
(Post 471278)
It seems like the entire legal system is a bit broken in regards to that.
Why can everyone sue everyone over the slightest thing and win? What in the American legal system makes this so relatively easy in regards to other countries? |
Here's the biggest reason not to have a socialized medical system.
http://www.nytimes.com/2008/06/13/wo...agewanted=1&em In Japan if you exceed the state mandated waist size you face heavy penalties. Rember the first rule of government; they do nothing well, so always limit the amount of things they do. |
Originally Posted by Photon
(Post 471274)
Yea she had health insurance of course, would be financial suicide to come over here without it.
So, if a guy who doesn't get health insurance from work, and can't afford one, how much would he have to pay for the same procedure you reckon? He would still get an emergency room bill? Your friend went to the emergency room with her stomach ache because she had insurance. Someone else would have waited and seen a doctor and run up a $125 bill. But because it didn't cost her anything she went to E Room. Most hospitals have a payment plan if you run up a bill, or you can always file for bankrupcy. |
Originally Posted by Photon
(Post 471121)
Well what's the point of good hospital standards if you have millions upon millions who simply can't afford a hospital visit.
I know personally, growing up in Norway, even though nothing is perfect, everyone is entitled to free hospitalization, and even the most sought after universities in Norway, are all practically free to attend (you basically pay about $50 a year to go there). Now, Norway is a much much smaller country, and easier to manage, but it still is bad to see so many people born and stuck in a ditch over here, where one accident will put you in debt for life. So if Norway is so great, why are you living here? Additionally, our medial costs are so high for two reasons. First, all the illegals. We have over 30 million illegals using our medical facilities on a regular basis because THEY ARE FREE if you have no money. About 20 million of the illegals reside here; the other 10 cross over from both Mexico and Canada for the services then return to their countries. Wait a minute, why would a Canadian, who has free socialist medial care in Canada, come to the United States??? Simple, because he’s told he has a three month wait for an appointment in Canada whereas he can get seen same day in the US. Second, we sue like nobody’s business. There’s even a law suit now for something like 50 million because the surgeon put a temporary tattoo on a patent after her surgery to cheer her up (http://www.philly.com/philly/hp/news_update/20080716_Surgeon_sued_for_giving_anesthetized_pati ent_temporary_tattoo.html). Another patient was appropriately treated and discharged from the after being given a prescription for clopidogrel. The patient then sued the cardiologist because … (wait for it)… he claims that he was NEVER TOLD TO FILL THE PRESCRIPTION AT THE TIME HE WAS DISCHARGED thus leading to clotting and a second visit. (http://www.rangelmd.com/index.php/2008/04/16/ridiculous-malpractice-lawsuit/) In Kentucky 25 percent of the state's obstetricians have moved away or stopped practicing since 2001, leaving 71 out of 120 counties without one. Every year, at least 3,000 pregnant women in the state scramble to find new doctors or midwives. (http://www.parents.com/pregnancy/labor-delivery/support/ob-gyn-shortage/?page=2) Although there needs to be an allowance for lawsuits for negligence, say removing the wrong leg, the law suits we have now are criminal and drives up the cost of our medical exponentially. We spend 2% of our GDP per year on torts. This may sound like a small amount but consider this… our huge deficit spending at the federal level only hits about 3% of the GDP. As to college, I don’t believe everyone is allowed to go. That could just be in Briton, but in Briton, getting into college is as hard as getting into a good masters program here. |
Originally Posted by MiserDD
(Post 471285)
Have you ever lived in this Northern European Utopia of yours???
Yes, I'm born and raised here, my parents are born and raised here, I've lived in Norway for a total of 23 years.
Originally Posted by MiserDD
(Post 471285)
Can’t afford a house until you’re about 40, so everyone lives with their parents until then.
Total bullcrap. The far majority of youth in Norway will rent an apartment while attending a university, after which they will - for the most part - either buy their own home, or continue renting. When you take an education in Norway, even though the actual tuition fee at all universities are practically non-existent, the tuition fee isn't the entire bill for a student, we all know that, so they get a loan, from the state, to foot all the other living expenses, books etc. If you pass your exams at school, the state removes 50% of this loan, and you do not start paying interest on this loan until you get a job, so it will be freezed while you study. In practicality, I don't know of a single person of all the ones I know, that live with their parents after their education is over with... Not sure where you dug this up.
Originally Posted by MiserDD
(Post 471285)
Want to go out to a restaurant? You can’t afford it unless you’re rich or your company pays for it.
Yep, this is true. People don't go out to eat every day, the eating culture up north is totally different, people actually eat home with their families instead of going out. The fast food mentality doesn't exist in the same manner, and therefore the restaurants you find back home (that are not American fast food chains), are the more exclusive ones.
Originally Posted by MiserDD
(Post 471285)
How about a bar?? Did you know most Norwegians get drunk before they go to the clubs?? That’s because it’s about $30 to get in and $15 per drink. At that, the clubs can barely afford to pay their taxes.
Guess what, when everyone earns more, surprise ! Everything costs more. Why do you think all students go ballistic when they get here, it's like having the earnings of a post-college job... Back home it would just be "normal". Yea, people have vorspiels (not even sure if that translates), back home before they go out on town, same as they do here in the US, even with the extremely low prices in comparison. Still they go out, still they don't go bankrupt, why do you think students can actually afford to go out on town in the northern countries, do you think they spend money they don't have? Try working a part time job at a gas station that earns you $26 an hour, and put it into perspective.
Originally Posted by MiserDD
(Post 471285)
Need an operation??? Better hope there are bed spaces, otherwise you loose! Did the doctor screw up and remove the wrong leg during an amputation??? Oh well, he’ll get the right one next time… oh, and you can’t sue, it’s against the law. Ever wonder how the politicians and their family and friends get immediate service with the best doctors and the average citizens get whatever is available whenever it’s available???
You lose? Guess what, if you're sick, you get treated, if someone performs wrongful surgery you get your money. There's been cases of wrongfull surgery where they get millions, cept that the state foots the bill, and no insurance rates go up. Sue is not excluded from the Norwegian vocabulary, it's just limited to just cases, wrongfull surgery would fall under that category. The average citizen gets just as good healthcare as the politicians, I don't know where you get your "facts", but it seems like you've watched the opposite of a Michael Moore film and swallowed the whole propoganda raw, go you!
Originally Posted by MiserDD
(Post 471285)
That’s because in socialist countries politicians are the Aristocracy, they write the laws, they control the money, and they control the judiciary. There is very little difference between socialism and feudalism. Just give the ignorant masses enough to keep them from revolting and yourself in power.
Guess what, Norway is a democracy like all other western countries, the people in charge are put in charge by the people, and Norway is governed by a multi-party system. Meaning, the populus decide which members of each party gets a seat in the Parliament, and they need majority to be in power. The laws need to be approved by people from all over the political spectrum, there is no society of aristocrats sitting on their high and mighty chairs and running. Are you just pretending to be thick, or are you really this ignorant... |
Originally Posted by Photon
(Post 471158)
I'm here because I get so much more for my money.
That’s because we don’t have all the socialist programs you laud. You want to be here for the extra bang for you buck, but you want the socialism that you’re left your home country to avoid paying for.:rolleyes: |
Originally Posted by Photon
(Post 471216)
I get more for my money because where I come from everyone earns more, but everything also costs more.
Add on top of that, the extremely low dollar in regards to the high Norwegian currency, I actually get an exchange rate of 5:1, instead of 8:1 just some years ago. So, if I work at home, and save up a few years worth of full time work as a security guard, I can come over here and had the equivalent of working several years at college-education levels. That's why I'm taking my education here, because this is a cheap country to live in when I take my money with me. Now I will admit, I do not have a bachelor in business, nor do I have an extremely high knowledge of all the workings I'm discussing here, and I'm only as good as my sources. However, I do still firmly believe, that the current system in the US at least in regards to the medical situation is not as it should be by a long shot. You say the transplant lines are shorter over here in regards to countries like Canada, now is that because your system is more efficient? Or is it simply because the people that usually get sick and needs a transplant don't actually have the money to cover it, and therefore the upper middle class is sat firmly in their chair of health insurance and get all they need from the sacrifice of those that don't. (correct me on this if I'm wrong). Do any of you actually say that, the way the system is now is just perfect, is there nothing you would change? In regards to actual education, social education if you'd like, including literacy, and in regards to health care like life expectancy, and finally financial freedom; Norway has been ranked nr1 on these items 6 years in a row by the United Nations, previously held by Canada 7 years in a row, now held by Iceland for 2007. Human Development Index - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia Yes the USA is on a larger scale, at least in regards to Norway, in some degree in regards to Canada, and I'm not here to raise my home country up on a pedestal, even though I can't help being partly subjective. However, if it does work, can't it work on a larger scale as well? Can someone tell me why it would not work in the USA? You say cost of tuition would go up when you add government influence, I can give you the exact opposite proof from where I'm from, where it's 100% government influence. Yes you can't just do a radical change, and it's hard discussion this without bringing in abstract terms and theories, but is it all that bad? You know this is really quite simple… if you country were so great with such a great system you’d be over there, but you’re not… you’re here! You’re here living off the handouts of US tax payers who cover your safety with our police and military, and cover much of your college with our federal dollars. Even your medial is covered in you NEED medical. Don’t walk into a hospital and demand cold medicine, but if you go in with chest pains you will get taken care of. And if you can’t pay the tax payer will pay it for you. And it won’t take three months to get an appointment! Finally, if you’re not happy… GO HOME! No body asked you to come here and suckle off the tit of the American Tax payer while you picked up a college education that you’re going to take somewhere else and profit off of. |
Originally Posted by MiserDD
(Post 471311)
That’s because we don’t have all the socialist programs you laud. You want to be here for the extra bang for you buck, but you want the socialism that you’re left your home country to avoid paying for.:rolleyes:
Originally Posted by MiserDD
(Post 471311)
So if Norway is so great, why are you living here?
I'm taking my education over here because I can take advantage of your country. I'm only here on a 2-year visa, and I'm not planning on ever living here outside of that period. While I'm here I'm taking my education, in a country where everything is cheaper. So I get all the positives of living my life in my home country, while getting a cheap education over here. The reason why? The Norwegian state didn't (take notice of, past tense) have a pilots education program until this year, so this was the cheapest option for me, taking it where everything doesn't cost as much. So using money that's worth more, in a country where everyhing is worth less, happy go lucky. |
Originally Posted by DeadHead
(Post 471281)
That's a slippery slope my friend, if everyone has a right to healthcare services then we can't exactly discriminate against anyone regardless of their lifestyle. It's like saying why should the police help someone who is a jerk that picks fights with people, or why should the fire department help a person who doesn't adequately protect their home.
One of my first jobs was a cashier at the local grocery store... I noticed quite a bit of families that would pay with food stamps and purchase things like haagen daz, filet mignon, and other higher priced items, while spending their cash on beer, cigs (I'm not blasting smokers here just making a point), and other stuff. They wore nice clothes and a good bit of jewelry. Every Thursday I also noticed how much money was being taken out of my check for various taxes. Some people who came in the store would admit to not working because it was easier to collect welfare/unemployment. They felt they paid enough in taxes, therefore they should receive benefits. Maybe I'm just naive but do people really need welfare and other programs? |
Originally Posted by MiserDD
(Post 471317)
Finally, if you’re not happy… GO HOME! No body asked you to come here and suckle off the tit of the American Tax payer while you picked up a college education that you’re going to take somewhere else and profit off of.
Me, and everyone else from Norway going to flight school over here are actually the ones injecting your economy with millions of dollars, so don't go thinking we are expecting your country to foot any college bills. I don't mind living here while I'm taking my education, it's great! I get so much bang for my buck that I earned back home that I'm in extacy. However, I wouldn't live here, and when I'm completely educated I'm going back home to find a job. Did you hear about the cancellation of the J-1 visa program? Most flight schools said their earnings would be cut in half because of the loss of international flight students. OH!, what's this? We're actually injecting money into American flight schools? On top of that we are actually educating American pilots who go to that same school in the same respect as you are |
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