Chevy Volt
08-16-2009, 03:09 AM
#1
Libertarian Resistance
Thread Starter
Joined APC: Feb 2007
Position: 757 FO
Posts: 1,057
Chevy Volt
Any thoughts on this vehicle? They've rolled it out and I've heard a lot about the fuel mileage it is supposed to get--230MPG I think.
A couple of thoughts:
Very expensive vehicle relative to its size. What additional costs related to the battery (disposal, replacement, etc.) are not advertised?
How do these batteries do in accdents? Are there hazmat issues? Thermal runaway issues if charged incorrectly?
What assumptions go into this fuel mileage rating? What if it is hot and you want to run the AC? You will either run the gas engine and lower that 230 number or you will dramatically lower your battery range. If it is cold the battery performance will suffer as well.
Let's say that the 230 number is correct and, being generous, let's assume that your gasoline costs are zero (the real number would be some non-zero value). If you plug this vehicle into a socket in your garage how much additional electricity will you consume in a month? At current rates what is the cost of this electricity vs. what the gasoline would have cost? If the Waxman-Markey legislation passes and the utility costs rise to make alternative energy sources competitive, how much would charging your Volt cost then? Finally, if you live in a state where electricity is generated by coal would your "carbon footprint" be larger using electricity from the house or gas from the pump?
Overall, this strikes me as an interesting idea, probably useful in some limited settings, but generally not efficient in the larger economy. A good example of an idea whose time has not yet come. I predict this will be the 8 track tape player of cars by 2012.
WW
A couple of thoughts:
Very expensive vehicle relative to its size. What additional costs related to the battery (disposal, replacement, etc.) are not advertised?
How do these batteries do in accdents? Are there hazmat issues? Thermal runaway issues if charged incorrectly?
What assumptions go into this fuel mileage rating? What if it is hot and you want to run the AC? You will either run the gas engine and lower that 230 number or you will dramatically lower your battery range. If it is cold the battery performance will suffer as well.
Let's say that the 230 number is correct and, being generous, let's assume that your gasoline costs are zero (the real number would be some non-zero value). If you plug this vehicle into a socket in your garage how much additional electricity will you consume in a month? At current rates what is the cost of this electricity vs. what the gasoline would have cost? If the Waxman-Markey legislation passes and the utility costs rise to make alternative energy sources competitive, how much would charging your Volt cost then? Finally, if you live in a state where electricity is generated by coal would your "carbon footprint" be larger using electricity from the house or gas from the pump?
Overall, this strikes me as an interesting idea, probably useful in some limited settings, but generally not efficient in the larger economy. A good example of an idea whose time has not yet come. I predict this will be the 8 track tape player of cars by 2012.
WW
08-16-2009, 04:55 AM
#2
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Mar 2007
Position: Capt
Posts: 3,215
Hi!
I read a LOT about the Volt previously, and the EPA mileage number was forecast to be about 100.
It is VERY difficult for the EPA to get a mileage number, as they have never had this type of vehicle to test/rate before. Sometimes the Volt uses gasoline, sometimes it doesn't.
cliff
NBO
I read a LOT about the Volt previously, and the EPA mileage number was forecast to be about 100.
It is VERY difficult for the EPA to get a mileage number, as they have never had this type of vehicle to test/rate before. Sometimes the Volt uses gasoline, sometimes it doesn't.
cliff
NBO
08-16-2009, 05:12 AM
#4
Retired
Joined APC: Feb 2008
Position: whale wrangler
Posts: 3,527
They schould get all the CORRECT info and then put it out there for people to judge for themselves on the merits of this .
There's been a real bad habit of people throwing out numbers lately that don't seem feasible.
If the car does not perform as advertised do we get our money back ?
Ally
There's been a real bad habit of people throwing out numbers lately that don't seem feasible.
If the car does not perform as advertised do we get our money back ?
Ally
08-16-2009, 05:45 AM
#5
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Jul 2008
Position: 747 Captain (Ret,)
Posts: 804
Originally Posted by DYNASTY HVY
They schould get all the CORRECT info and then put it out there for people to judge for themselves on the merits of this .
There's been a real bad habit of people throwing out numbers lately that don't seem feasible.
If the car does not perform as advertised do we get our money back ?
Ally
There's been a real bad habit of people throwing out numbers lately that don't seem feasible.
If the car does not perform as advertised do we get our money back ?
Ally
Joe
08-16-2009, 06:04 AM
#6
Libertarian Resistance
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Joined APC: Feb 2007
Position: 757 FO
Posts: 1,057
Originally Posted by kronan
the 230 was the most optimistic calc w/majority of short range trips etc,
maybe a plug-in available at work would kick that number even higher
northland folks know what I'm talking about
maybe a plug-in available at work would kick that number even higher
northland folks know what I'm talking about
WW
08-16-2009, 02:54 PM
#7
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Oct 2007
Position: Sr. VP of button pushing
Posts: 2,730
All of the EPAs test are done on a dynamometer, 11 miles of city driving in 31 minutes with 23 stops, 12 miles highway in 12.5 minutes with no stops, 3.6 miles in 9.9 minutes with the AC on, and there's an aggressive leg and a cold city leg. The whole set is only 45 miles and an hour and a half. Then the math is put together to create a rating.
08-17-2009, 09:11 PM
#8
Banned
Joined APC: Feb 2007
Posts: 461
What I learned about electrical cars:
1. If Lithium Ion, they are completely recyclable.
2. Most chargers are controlled to prevent thermal runaway
3. Batteries on the Tesla have a chip on EACH cell to charge individually and disconnect if necessary (failed cell, overheat)
4. Most production electrics have a impact triggered disconnect (like airbag).
5. Dollar for dollar (assuming average/kilowatt -vs- $3.00/gal) electrical vehicles are 6 times more efficient than a gasoline vehicle of similar size.
Good:
1. cheaper to operate.
2. fewer moving parts (motor has 1 moving part)
3. MUCH less maintenance.
4. MUCH more torque.
Bad:
1. Expensive (for now)
2. Charge times (for now)
3. Range (for now)
Yes I know the Volt is a hybrid, but hybrids are only an intermediate technology while waiting for a suitable storage device for fully electric vehicles.
Electrical vehicles will likely many families second car. The Inter Combustion Engine for longer trips (or when someone forgets to charge the electric car) and the electrical vehicle for most local trips. Large trucks will likely take longer to change over.
Yeah, I think 230mpg is being a little unrealistic. I would like to be proven wrong.
1. If Lithium Ion, they are completely recyclable.
2. Most chargers are controlled to prevent thermal runaway
3. Batteries on the Tesla have a chip on EACH cell to charge individually and disconnect if necessary (failed cell, overheat)
4. Most production electrics have a impact triggered disconnect (like airbag).
5. Dollar for dollar (assuming average/kilowatt -vs- $3.00/gal) electrical vehicles are 6 times more efficient than a gasoline vehicle of similar size.
Good:
1. cheaper to operate.
2. fewer moving parts (motor has 1 moving part)
3. MUCH less maintenance.
4. MUCH more torque.
Bad:
1. Expensive (for now)
2. Charge times (for now)
3. Range (for now)
Yes I know the Volt is a hybrid, but hybrids are only an intermediate technology while waiting for a suitable storage device for fully electric vehicles.
Electrical vehicles will likely many families second car. The Inter Combustion Engine for longer trips (or when someone forgets to charge the electric car) and the electrical vehicle for most local trips. Large trucks will likely take longer to change over.
Yeah, I think 230mpg is being a little unrealistic. I would like to be proven wrong.
08-17-2009, 09:45 PM
#9
Can't abide NAI
Joined APC: Jun 2007
Position: Douglas Aerospace post production Flight Test & Work Around Engineering bulletin dissembler
Posts: 11,989
As a cheap pilot, I just want to know what the Company will think of a long extension cord plugged into a light socket adapter out in the crew lot while I'm out flying a 5 day trip?
08-18-2009, 03:41 AM
#10
Libertarian Resistance
Thread Starter
Joined APC: Feb 2007
Position: 757 FO
Posts: 1,057
Originally Posted by CrimsonEclipse
What I learned about electrical cars:
1. If Lithium Ion, they are completely recyclable.
2. Most chargers are controlled to prevent thermal runaway
3. Batteries on the Tesla have a chip on EACH cell to charge individually and disconnect if necessary (failed cell, overheat)
4. Most production electrics have a impact triggered disconnect (like airbag).
5. Dollar for dollar (assuming average/kilowatt -vs- $3.00/gal) electrical vehicles are 6 times more efficient than a gasoline vehicle of similar size.
Good:
1. cheaper to operate.
2. fewer moving parts (motor has 1 moving part)
3. MUCH less maintenance.
4. MUCH more torque.
Bad:
1. Expensive (for now)
2. Charge times (for now)
3. Range (for now)
Yes I know the Volt is a hybrid, but hybrids are only an intermediate technology while waiting for a suitable storage device for fully electric vehicles.
Electrical vehicles will likely many families second car. The Inter Combustion Engine for longer trips (or when someone forgets to charge the electric car) and the electrical vehicle for most local trips. Large trucks will likely take longer to change over.
Yeah, I think 230mpg is being a little unrealistic. I would like to be proven wrong.
1. If Lithium Ion, they are completely recyclable.
2. Most chargers are controlled to prevent thermal runaway
3. Batteries on the Tesla have a chip on EACH cell to charge individually and disconnect if necessary (failed cell, overheat)
4. Most production electrics have a impact triggered disconnect (like airbag).
5. Dollar for dollar (assuming average/kilowatt -vs- $3.00/gal) electrical vehicles are 6 times more efficient than a gasoline vehicle of similar size.
Good:
1. cheaper to operate.
2. fewer moving parts (motor has 1 moving part)
3. MUCH less maintenance.
4. MUCH more torque.
Bad:
1. Expensive (for now)
2. Charge times (for now)
3. Range (for now)
Yes I know the Volt is a hybrid, but hybrids are only an intermediate technology while waiting for a suitable storage device for fully electric vehicles.
Electrical vehicles will likely many families second car. The Inter Combustion Engine for longer trips (or when someone forgets to charge the electric car) and the electrical vehicle for most local trips. Large trucks will likely take longer to change over.
Yeah, I think 230mpg is being a little unrealistic. I would like to be proven wrong.
I agree with your bad list without reservation. However, your paranthetical asides--"for now", warrant a comment. By subsizing this, you protect it from the rigors of the market and you retard it's development. It would be market ready and practical much sooner if we left it alone.
WW
