Chevy Volt
08-18-2009, 11:23 AM
#11
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Mar 2007
Position: Capt
Posts: 3,215
Hi!
Electric cars are WAY more efficient, and have MUCH less total air pollution than an ICE car.
That is because the cost and pollution to create the electricty to power the car is MUCH less than the cost and pollution to create and burn the gasoline in an ICE car. And, with renewable (wind/solar/+) power becoming more prevalent, the total cost and pollution of the electrical power they produce will be even less than our currently produced electricity from coal.
cliff
NBO
PS-There are LOTS of alternative energy car people that DESPISE the hybrids, and other non-100% electric cars, and say we are wasting our time and money developing them, and should put ALL of our efforts into 100% electric vehicles.
Electric cars are WAY more efficient, and have MUCH less total air pollution than an ICE car.
That is because the cost and pollution to create the electricty to power the car is MUCH less than the cost and pollution to create and burn the gasoline in an ICE car. And, with renewable (wind/solar/+) power becoming more prevalent, the total cost and pollution of the electrical power they produce will be even less than our currently produced electricity from coal.
cliff
NBO
PS-There are LOTS of alternative energy car people that DESPISE the hybrids, and other non-100% electric cars, and say we are wasting our time and money developing them, and should put ALL of our efforts into 100% electric vehicles.
08-18-2009, 11:35 AM
#12
Libertarian Resistance
Thread Starter
Joined APC: Feb 2007
Position: 757 FO
Posts: 1,057
Originally Posted by atpcliff
Hi!
Electric cars are WAY more efficient, and have MUCH less total air pollution than an ICE car.
That is because the cost and pollution to create the electricty to power the car is MUCH less than the cost and pollution to create and burn the gasoline in an ICE car. And, with renewable (wind/solar/+) power becoming more prevalent, the total cost and pollution of the electrical power they produce will be even less than our currently produced electricity from coal.
cliff
NBO
PS-There are LOTS of alternative energy car people that DESPISE the hybrids, and other non-100% electric cars, and say we are wasting our time and money developing them, and should put ALL of our efforts into 100% electric vehicles.
Electric cars are WAY more efficient, and have MUCH less total air pollution than an ICE car.
That is because the cost and pollution to create the electricty to power the car is MUCH less than the cost and pollution to create and burn the gasoline in an ICE car. And, with renewable (wind/solar/+) power becoming more prevalent, the total cost and pollution of the electrical power they produce will be even less than our currently produced electricity from coal.
cliff
NBO
PS-There are LOTS of alternative energy car people that DESPISE the hybrids, and other non-100% electric cars, and say we are wasting our time and money developing them, and should put ALL of our efforts into 100% electric vehicles.
WW
08-18-2009, 06:16 PM
#13
Banned
Joined APC: Feb 2007
Posts: 461
I calculated this all out for making a decision for converting my truck to electric. I calculated the miles necessary to recover the cost of conversion.
I'll skip all of that.
Cost Per Mile | Calculate Your Mileage | Electric Cars & Vehicles
This shows around 3-5 fold difference.
Electric Car Cost Comparison
Here's an interesting calculator.
Electric vs Gasoline – Which is more cost effective? True Cost – Analyzing our economy, government policy, and society through the lens of cost-benefit
More info.
Honestly, I read the 6 fold information on the Tesla page (honestly i cannot find it) and my calculations were pretty close to their mark.
http://avt.inel.gov/pdf/fsev/costs.pdf
That should be a good start.
I'll skip all of that.
Cost Per Mile | Calculate Your Mileage | Electric Cars & Vehicles
This shows around 3-5 fold difference.
Electric Car Cost Comparison
Here's an interesting calculator.
Electric vs Gasoline – Which is more cost effective? True Cost – Analyzing our economy, government policy, and society through the lens of cost-benefit
More info.
Honestly, I read the 6 fold information on the Tesla page (honestly i cannot find it) and my calculations were pretty close to their mark.
http://avt.inel.gov/pdf/fsev/costs.pdf
That should be a good start.
08-18-2009, 06:32 PM
#14
Thx Age 65
Joined APC: Jul 2005
Position: MD11CAP
Posts: 1,041
From Hotair.com
Why do I say almost? Let’s do the math. Initial sticker-price estimates are $40,000; assume it’ll be a bit more than that, then deduct $7,500 for the federal tax credit you’ll get for buying one. Let’s say that leaves us with a cost of $35,000. Figure a new car with standard fuel efficiency will get 20 mpg and run you $18,000. Now assume gas prices of $3 per gallon. Buying the cheaper car will save you enough money to afford 5,667 gallons of gas, which, at 20 mpg, means it would be a better deal than the Volt for the first … 113,000 miles.
Why do I say almost? Let’s do the math. Initial sticker-price estimates are $40,000; assume it’ll be a bit more than that, then deduct $7,500 for the federal tax credit you’ll get for buying one. Let’s say that leaves us with a cost of $35,000. Figure a new car with standard fuel efficiency will get 20 mpg and run you $18,000. Now assume gas prices of $3 per gallon. Buying the cheaper car will save you enough money to afford 5,667 gallons of gas, which, at 20 mpg, means it would be a better deal than the Volt for the first … 113,000 miles.
08-19-2009, 02:09 AM
#15
Libertarian Resistance
Thread Starter
Joined APC: Feb 2007
Position: 757 FO
Posts: 1,057
Calculation questions
I haven't looked at the other sites yet, but some questions:
Do these assume that electric rates remain the same? If a lot of Volts are being recharged they will go up, with crap and trade they will go up significantly. Think corn commodity prices in the ethanol era. Similarly, do projected gasoline prices go down due to decreased demand?
Costs of battery replacement and disposal are likely to be significant.
WW
Do these assume that electric rates remain the same? If a lot of Volts are being recharged they will go up, with crap and trade they will go up significantly. Think corn commodity prices in the ethanol era. Similarly, do projected gasoline prices go down due to decreased demand?
Costs of battery replacement and disposal are likely to be significant.
WW
08-19-2009, 03:45 AM
#16
Libertarian Resistance
Thread Starter
Joined APC: Feb 2007
Position: 757 FO
Posts: 1,057
Other costs
There is some, non-zero cost associated with the very large tax incentive you get for buying one of these. Hard to quantify that for the purchaser, but since these are being peddled as "good for all of us" I think we'll have to calculate that somewhere.
Also, I am not going to put the money I save buying the conventional car in a mattress. Calculating the returns on invested money moves the break even point to the right.
WW
Also, I am not going to put the money I save buying the conventional car in a mattress. Calculating the returns on invested money moves the break even point to the right.
WW
08-19-2009, 03:50 AM
#17
Libertarian Resistance
Thread Starter
Joined APC: Feb 2007
Position: 757 FO
Posts: 1,057
Other comments:
I found these on a blog called Planet Gore. These observations are only opinions and have not been QC'd;
Planet Gore on National Review Online
But in order for vastly more expensive electric vehicles like the Volt to be competitive in the marketplace, the feds have approved a whopping $7,500 credit. When the Volt goes on sale late next year, GM expects a base price of $40,000. Thus, the credit will bring the boxy little Chevy’s sticker within rage of a fully loaded, 50 mpg, $31,000 Prius. (Whoops — except that’s before the Toyota hybrid’s $3,150 credit. And, not lying down to GM’s green challenge, Toyota expects to debut its own 100-mpg, $7,500 tax credit-eligible plug-in in 2010).
Already in the hole to GM for $70 billion then, taxpayers will cough up an extra $7,500 per Volt sold. That’s assuming they sell, of course.
In the current $2.50-a-gallon market, the hottest selling GM car is a long way from 100 mpg. It’s the ground-pawing 2010 Camaro with unsubsidized backorders numbering in the thousands.
And the other:
Unless I'm wrong about the science involved, there are other factors to consider beyond the pertinent cost factors you mentioned:
The range figures for the Volt are strictly hopenchange. GM hopes to achieve a 40-mile, all-electric range and a 300-mile range with the gasoline engine running to maintain battery charge.
So GM is producing a vehicle that will be, at best, a short range commuter, will be fiendishly expensive and whose repair and vital-part-replacement costs will likely be so unsustainable as to be mind-boggling, will have any reasonable range only if you don't use frills like headlights, air conditioning, brake lights, turn signals, radio, etc, and will be functional only in those parts of the country that are consistently hot throughout the year. I can foresee only economic success. You?
LIke GM's first attempt at an electric vehicle (which was experimented with in California and Arizona only), the Volt — and all electric vehicles — will only be semi-practical in hot climates. Why? Cold rapidly drains battery power. Very rapidly. In much of the United States and virtually all of Canada, it will simply be too cold much of the year to operate the Volt. There is no practical solution to this problem apart from miraculous breakthroughs that will immediately transcend the laws of physics as they are currently understood. Who is going to spend some $40,000 on a vehicle with a range measured in feet rather than miles for most of the year? Imagine how fast the juice will drain from a battery pack of an electric vehicle stuck in snow, trying to rock its way out. This reality of physics is what defeated GM's first attempt at an all electric vehicle. It will do the same this time around. Paradoxically, the only thing that could make the Volt semi-viable is massive and human-extinguishing global warming, which we must, of course, fight with all of our money, productivity, and might. Heck, we can't even export these cars to places in the developing world like India that tend to be pretty hot because no one could afford them.
The range figures are almost certainly based under absolutely ideal conditions of city driving. If you drive the vehicle under any other conditions, range will be less, dramatically less. For instance, the faster you go — highway speeds, for instance — the more electric reserve you use. Use any accessories that draw electrical power — such as headlights, turn signals, brake lights, radio, air conditioning — and you burn electricity at a frightening rate. And of course, the more people you pack into the little vehicle, the more juice you use. In electric vehicles, this factor alone will likely have a much greater impact than in conventional vehicles. Practical range might well be less than half that projected, much less than half. These vehicles have the potential to be short range commuters only, very short range. When you're out of battery power, you're sitting in a very expensive, very large paperweight that will take hours to recharge.
The state of battery technology is still being furiously spun by GM. Lithium ion battery packs still have a distressing tendency to spontaneously burst into flame. We have no real idea how they'll behave if ruptured in an accident, but it's a sure thing it won't be happy making. The battery packs are fiendishly expensive, so much so that GM is not even hopenchanging their possible replacement price, but expect something in the range of half the price of each vehicle. GM is suggesting that the battery packs will last ten years, but that's hopenchange again. No one knows. We do know that the more charge/discharge cycles, the more quickly the battery will reach the end of its useful lifespan, and GM is suggesting that the Volt should be charged at least once a day. So we may well have a vehicle with a battery pack that lasts only a few years and far exceeds the used value of the vehicle to replace at virtually any point in its life. In essence, the battery pack may well be worth far more than the vehicle for which it provides spotty, short range power.
Planet Gore on National Review Online
But in order for vastly more expensive electric vehicles like the Volt to be competitive in the marketplace, the feds have approved a whopping $7,500 credit. When the Volt goes on sale late next year, GM expects a base price of $40,000. Thus, the credit will bring the boxy little Chevy’s sticker within rage of a fully loaded, 50 mpg, $31,000 Prius. (Whoops — except that’s before the Toyota hybrid’s $3,150 credit. And, not lying down to GM’s green challenge, Toyota expects to debut its own 100-mpg, $7,500 tax credit-eligible plug-in in 2010).
Already in the hole to GM for $70 billion then, taxpayers will cough up an extra $7,500 per Volt sold. That’s assuming they sell, of course.
In the current $2.50-a-gallon market, the hottest selling GM car is a long way from 100 mpg. It’s the ground-pawing 2010 Camaro with unsubsidized backorders numbering in the thousands.
And the other:
Unless I'm wrong about the science involved, there are other factors to consider beyond the pertinent cost factors you mentioned:
The range figures for the Volt are strictly hopenchange. GM hopes to achieve a 40-mile, all-electric range and a 300-mile range with the gasoline engine running to maintain battery charge.
So GM is producing a vehicle that will be, at best, a short range commuter, will be fiendishly expensive and whose repair and vital-part-replacement costs will likely be so unsustainable as to be mind-boggling, will have any reasonable range only if you don't use frills like headlights, air conditioning, brake lights, turn signals, radio, etc, and will be functional only in those parts of the country that are consistently hot throughout the year. I can foresee only economic success. You?
LIke GM's first attempt at an electric vehicle (which was experimented with in California and Arizona only), the Volt — and all electric vehicles — will only be semi-practical in hot climates. Why? Cold rapidly drains battery power. Very rapidly. In much of the United States and virtually all of Canada, it will simply be too cold much of the year to operate the Volt. There is no practical solution to this problem apart from miraculous breakthroughs that will immediately transcend the laws of physics as they are currently understood. Who is going to spend some $40,000 on a vehicle with a range measured in feet rather than miles for most of the year? Imagine how fast the juice will drain from a battery pack of an electric vehicle stuck in snow, trying to rock its way out. This reality of physics is what defeated GM's first attempt at an all electric vehicle. It will do the same this time around. Paradoxically, the only thing that could make the Volt semi-viable is massive and human-extinguishing global warming, which we must, of course, fight with all of our money, productivity, and might. Heck, we can't even export these cars to places in the developing world like India that tend to be pretty hot because no one could afford them.
The range figures are almost certainly based under absolutely ideal conditions of city driving. If you drive the vehicle under any other conditions, range will be less, dramatically less. For instance, the faster you go — highway speeds, for instance — the more electric reserve you use. Use any accessories that draw electrical power — such as headlights, turn signals, brake lights, radio, air conditioning — and you burn electricity at a frightening rate. And of course, the more people you pack into the little vehicle, the more juice you use. In electric vehicles, this factor alone will likely have a much greater impact than in conventional vehicles. Practical range might well be less than half that projected, much less than half. These vehicles have the potential to be short range commuters only, very short range. When you're out of battery power, you're sitting in a very expensive, very large paperweight that will take hours to recharge.
The state of battery technology is still being furiously spun by GM. Lithium ion battery packs still have a distressing tendency to spontaneously burst into flame. We have no real idea how they'll behave if ruptured in an accident, but it's a sure thing it won't be happy making. The battery packs are fiendishly expensive, so much so that GM is not even hopenchanging their possible replacement price, but expect something in the range of half the price of each vehicle. GM is suggesting that the battery packs will last ten years, but that's hopenchange again. No one knows. We do know that the more charge/discharge cycles, the more quickly the battery will reach the end of its useful lifespan, and GM is suggesting that the Volt should be charged at least once a day. So we may well have a vehicle with a battery pack that lasts only a few years and far exceeds the used value of the vehicle to replace at virtually any point in its life. In essence, the battery pack may well be worth far more than the vehicle for which it provides spotty, short range power.
08-19-2009, 04:28 AM
#19
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Apr 2008
Position: CFI in training
Posts: 160
Originally Posted by HoursHore
From Hotair.com
Why do I say almost? Let’s do the math. Initial sticker-price estimates are $40,000; assume it’ll be a bit more than that, then deduct $7,500 for the federal tax credit you’ll get for buying one. Let’s say that leaves us with a cost of $35,000. Figure a new car with standard fuel efficiency will get 20 mpg and run you $18,000. Now assume gas prices of $3 per gallon. Buying the cheaper car will save you enough money to afford 5,667 gallons of gas, which, at 20 mpg, means it would be a better deal than the Volt for the first … 113,000 miles.
Why do I say almost? Let’s do the math. Initial sticker-price estimates are $40,000; assume it’ll be a bit more than that, then deduct $7,500 for the federal tax credit you’ll get for buying one. Let’s say that leaves us with a cost of $35,000. Figure a new car with standard fuel efficiency will get 20 mpg and run you $18,000. Now assume gas prices of $3 per gallon. Buying the cheaper car will save you enough money to afford 5,667 gallons of gas, which, at 20 mpg, means it would be a better deal than the Volt for the first … 113,000 miles.
08-19-2009, 05:48 AM
#20
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Sep 2008
Position: B767
Posts: 1,901
Originally Posted by CrimsonEclipse
What I learned about electrical cars:
1. If Lithium Ion, they are completely recyclable.
1. If Lithium Ion, they are completely recyclable.
"Today we’re a long way from major automotive lithium recycling. Still, as lithium batteries in vehicles get closer to full commercialization, then Toxco, and perhaps newcomers into the business will probably be gearing up to meet the demand. It seems likely that now many lithium batteries, particularly the smallest ones, are not recycled but dumped in the trash. Given that so much is banking on lithium at the moment, it seems a shame to throw away any of this valuable resource."
2. Most chargers are controlled to prevent thermal runaway
Lithium-ion safety concerns
3. Batteries on the Tesla have a chip on EACH cell to charge individually and disconnect if necessary (failed cell, overheat)
4. Most production electrics have a impact triggered disconnect (like airbag).
5. Dollar for dollar (assuming average/kilowatt -vs- $3.00/gal) electrical vehicles are 6 times more efficient than a gasoline vehicle of similar size.
Good:
1. cheaper to operate.
1. cheaper to operate.
2. fewer moving parts (motor has 1 moving part)
3. MUCH less maintenance.
4. MUCH more torque.
Bad:
1. Expensive (for now)
2. Charge times (for now)
3. Range (for now)
Yes I know the Volt is a hybrid, but hybrids are only an intermediate technology while waiting for a suitable storage device for fully electric vehicles.
1. Expensive (for now)
2. Charge times (for now)
3. Range (for now)
Yes I know the Volt is a hybrid, but hybrids are only an intermediate technology while waiting for a suitable storage device for fully electric vehicles.
Electrical vehicles will likely many families second car. The Inter Combustion Engine for longer trips (or when someone forgets to charge the electric car) and the electrical vehicle for most local trips. Large trucks will likely take longer to change over.
Yeah, I think 230mpg is being a little unrealistic. I would like to be proven wrong.
