USA Today Article (on pilot training)
12-11-2010 | 01:12 PM
#31
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From: Corporate Pilot
Par for the course
I usually just read but this is something that I feel strongly about. First, I've been the 500 hour guy that wanted a job so bad I would do anything for it. That was before I got 1800 hours of dual given, years of life experience, and learned from making my own mistakes first. There are several points I would like to mention:
First, as noted, in my opinion 1000 hours in a Cessna 152 as a CFI are enumerably better than 1000 hours in a crew environment. The experience of being a PIC, having to make decisions for you and someone else and along with the ability to teach and yet take control and be decisive when necessary is not afforded in the buy a pilot programs.
Life experience is necessary to be a PIC. Without ever having to be responsible for anything how can you expect someone to know how to be? As pointed out, in nearly every other industry in the world it takes 4 years or more to get to the entry point and start your career. In one of the better paid industries in the world, how is it that someone with no experience, and barely enough education to be dangerous, safe in a multi million dollar aircraft with 100 people on board? While people will contend that the captains experience should make up for a new FO, a new FO means the captain now can't work in a crew environment but essentially becomes a single pilot until that experience is earned.
*To point out that a seasoned pilot is usually at the controls is the cause of the crash as a blanket statement is unfair in my opinion for this very reason...qualify it to say how experienced his FO was and prove he wasn't over-loaded.
I managed a large group of instructors and check airman at the busiest flight school in the country. I sat in on countless job interviews and without the basic fundamentals having been learned from being a CFI or earning that experience, most of them couldn't keep up with a piston single or light twin let alone a jet. This coming in the same month that some of them graduated from some of the top aviation universities in the country.
I know it seems frustrating to those without 1500 hours and that pure hours don't mean a thing without value. I'm a firm believer though that 250 hours is way to few.
First, as noted, in my opinion 1000 hours in a Cessna 152 as a CFI are enumerably better than 1000 hours in a crew environment. The experience of being a PIC, having to make decisions for you and someone else and along with the ability to teach and yet take control and be decisive when necessary is not afforded in the buy a pilot programs.
Life experience is necessary to be a PIC. Without ever having to be responsible for anything how can you expect someone to know how to be? As pointed out, in nearly every other industry in the world it takes 4 years or more to get to the entry point and start your career. In one of the better paid industries in the world, how is it that someone with no experience, and barely enough education to be dangerous, safe in a multi million dollar aircraft with 100 people on board? While people will contend that the captains experience should make up for a new FO, a new FO means the captain now can't work in a crew environment but essentially becomes a single pilot until that experience is earned.
*To point out that a seasoned pilot is usually at the controls is the cause of the crash as a blanket statement is unfair in my opinion for this very reason...qualify it to say how experienced his FO was and prove he wasn't over-loaded.
I managed a large group of instructors and check airman at the busiest flight school in the country. I sat in on countless job interviews and without the basic fundamentals having been learned from being a CFI or earning that experience, most of them couldn't keep up with a piston single or light twin let alone a jet. This coming in the same month that some of them graduated from some of the top aviation universities in the country.
I know it seems frustrating to those without 1500 hours and that pure hours don't mean a thing without value. I'm a firm believer though that 250 hours is way to few.
It seems a constant that when guys are low timers they nearly always are in favor of going straight to a regional however once they have gone through all the sacrifice of slowly building time they the change their minds and want everyone else to have to go through the same.
Military pilots are turned loose with fighters and large transports with very little flight time. The majors hired pilots with only a few hundred hours in the 1960's with no lasting negative impacts. The regionals are currently staffed by a thousands of pilots who were hired with low time.
There is just no reason for a 1500 hour requirement. I am sure that a flight instructor is better at instructing after 1000 hours of instruction given but that has little to do with part 121 transport category aviation. Everyone starts over again at the bottom. A 152 is not the same as a 737NG by a long shot.
Perhaps the military should have a 1500 hour requirement as well?
Skyhigh
12-11-2010 | 01:19 PM
#32
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From: Corporate Pilot
Learned
Such a blanket statement. I haven't exactly flown 121, but I do have a bit of time on the 135 side of things. I also have about 1500hrs of dual given. I learned more about flying in the first 250hrs of dual given then I did thus far flying 135 in both single pilot at crew environments.
Many large intercontinental part 121 pilots have to struggle to get three landings in 90 days. It takes a long time to get comfortable with a big jet because they might only make one landing every 12 hours and as an FO you could expect to get every other landing. Often it comes out to one landing every 24 hours of flight time. Most of the time the auto pilot is on.
Transport category pilots are not free to do 9 touch and goes in an hour to be followed by steep turns, stalls and MCA. Just because you are good at flying a 172 does not mean by a long shot that those skills transfer directly to a transport category plane.
Skyhigh
12-11-2010 | 01:28 PM
#33
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From: FAA 'Flight Check'
Military pilots are turned loose with fighters and large transports with very little flight time. The majors hired pilots with only a few hundred hours in the 1960's with no lasting negative impacts. The regionals are currently staffed by a thousands of pilots who were hired with low time.
I'm interested in what you know of this.
Perhaps the military should have a 1500 hour requirement as well?
Skyhigh
Skyhigh
Are equating the military training to a majority of the civilian training out there and trying to make some comparisions between what a person should be able to do with a wet commerical vice a pair of wings?
USMCFLYR
12-12-2010 | 06:52 AM
#34
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From: Corporate Pilot
Why do't you tell us
Turned loose? Exactly how is that Sky?
I'm interested in what you know of this.
1500 hour requirement for what? Mission qualification?
Are equating the military training to a majority of the civilian training out there and trying to make some comparisions between what a person should be able to do with a wet commerical vice a pair of wings?
USMCFLYR
I'm interested in what you know of this.
1500 hour requirement for what? Mission qualification?
Are equating the military training to a majority of the civilian training out there and trying to make some comparisions between what a person should be able to do with a wet commerical vice a pair of wings?
USMCFLYR
My point is that I am sure that the military does not expect new hire pilots to come to their first day with 1500 hours already under their belt. However they are then given command of powerful weapons and transport category planes with soles aboard with far less time then most other areas of aviation.
Perhaps you could share with us how mush time a pilot typically has before they are the sole manipulator of the controls in an F18?
Skyhigh
12-12-2010 | 07:49 AM
#35
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From: FAA 'Flight Check'
USMCFLYR,
My point is that I am sure that the military does not expect new hire pilots to come to their first day with 1500 hours already under their belt. However they are then given command of powerful weapons and transport category planes with soles aboard with far less time then most other areas of aviation.
Perhaps you could share with us how mush time a pilot typically has before they are the sole manipulator of the controls in an F18?
Skyhigh
My point is that I am sure that the military does not expect new hire pilots to come to their first day with 1500 hours already under their belt. However they are then given command of powerful weapons and transport category planes with soles aboard with far less time then most other areas of aviation.
Perhaps you could share with us how mush time a pilot typically has before they are the sole manipulator of the controls in an F18?
Skyhigh
You are making comparisons that don't exist. At least have the common decency to try and argue points that have meaning. Maybe you should stick with the 'Doom and Gloom' thread.
Absolutely I will share how many hours a person has before soloing in an F-18. The syllabus calls for four (4) flights and approximately 6.0 hours!
Amazing isn't it? Of course that is basically taking it off, able to fly out to a working area and back, do some aerobatics and be able to handle any emergencies that might surface, and being able to land on an 8,000 runway (at least). We won't go into the next 8-12 months of intensive training to be able to employ that weapons system - that is where the REAL training lies and then of course they get to chance to concentrate A LOT more on the landing aspect near the end of training.Again - what comparison are you trying to make? Try to actually answer the question this time. Is it your contention that they have been "turned loose" at this point? The Hornet is a very easy airplane to fly from point A to point B - takeoff and land. Do you think that they are ready to be turned loose then? Not quite.
USMCFLYR
Last edited by USMCFLYR; 12-12-2010 at 09:21 AM.
12-13-2010 | 10:24 AM
#37
Flying Farmer
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From: Turbo-props' and John Deere's
12-14-2010 | 07:56 AM
#38
Self Employed.
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From: Corporate Pilot
Turned loose
Absolutely they don't expect you to come to training with 1500 total time. Matter of fact many of those very pilots have problems. It is certainly a different type of flying than they are use to. There is a benefit to prior experience - - to a point.
You are making comparisons that don't exist. At least have the common decency to try and argue points that have meaning. Maybe you should stick with the 'Doom and Gloom' thread.
Absolutely I will share how many hours a person has before soloing in an F-18. The syllabus calls for four (4) flights and approximately 6.0 hours! Amazing isn't it? Of course that is basically taking it off, able to fly out to a working area and back, do some aerobatics and be able to handle any emergencies that might surface, and being able to land on an 8,000 runway (at least). We won't go into the next 8-12 months of intensive training to be able to employ that weapons system - that is where the REAL training lies and then of course they get to chance to concentrate A LOT more on the landing aspect near the end of training.
Again - what comparison are you trying to make? Try to actually answer the question this time. Is it your contention that they have been "turned loose" at this point? The Hornet is a very easy airplane to fly from point A to point B - takeoff and land. Do you think that they are ready to be turned loose then? Not quite.
USMCFLYR
You are making comparisons that don't exist. At least have the common decency to try and argue points that have meaning. Maybe you should stick with the 'Doom and Gloom' thread.
Absolutely I will share how many hours a person has before soloing in an F-18. The syllabus calls for four (4) flights and approximately 6.0 hours!
Amazing isn't it? Of course that is basically taking it off, able to fly out to a working area and back, do some aerobatics and be able to handle any emergencies that might surface, and being able to land on an 8,000 runway (at least). We won't go into the next 8-12 months of intensive training to be able to employ that weapons system - that is where the REAL training lies and then of course they get to chance to concentrate A LOT more on the landing aspect near the end of training.Again - what comparison are you trying to make? Try to actually answer the question this time. Is it your contention that they have been "turned loose" at this point? The Hornet is a very easy airplane to fly from point A to point B - takeoff and land. Do you think that they are ready to be turned loose then? Not quite.
USMCFLYR
Few professional pilots are ever truly "turned loose" but to be the sole manipulator of the controls after 6 hours is amazing. My point is that other areas of aviation feel comfortable placing aircraft into the care of pilots who have very little experience.
It seems unnecessary to make a regional pilot have 1500 hours when most other areas of aviation do not. Do you know anything about transport pilots in the military? How much experience do they have prior to being released as a passenger carrying crewman?
I had a co-worker once who was a KC-135 captain (aircraft commander?) in the AF with only 600 hours of total flight experience. Is that common? In Europe and Asia cadet programs commonly place individuals in the right seat of transport category passenger carrying planes with only a few hundred hours.
My position is that these agencies can do that because they use a highly focussed program of learning. The military does not force a fighter pilot to do 250 hours in a single engine piston plane prior to entering fighter school. What would be the point? Why does a fighter pilot need to know about VFR procedures, single engine piston operations, dead reckoning and the like.
They don't and neither do regional airline pilots. I believe that in the near future American regional airline pilots will be given concentrated training with the sole focus of making them into RJ first officers. It is not about the amount of flight experience but the concentration of training for a specific purpose.
Skyhigh
Last edited by SkyHigh; 12-14-2010 at 08:08 AM.
12-14-2010 | 08:36 AM
#39
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From: Desk: Designing Instrument Approaches/Departures
I would hope that increasing the hourly requirement WOULD drive other factors such as pay; however, I don't believe this would actually occur.
In the cyclical swings of the industry, the requirements to the regionals have gone up and down, yet the pay never follows. Why would it now?
The law change regulates the pilot minimum hourly requirements, not the wages that airlines pay.
Food for thought.
In the cyclical swings of the industry, the requirements to the regionals have gone up and down, yet the pay never follows. Why would it now?
The law change regulates the pilot minimum hourly requirements, not the wages that airlines pay.
Food for thought.
12-14-2010 | 09:19 AM
#40
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From: ATP, CFI etc.
Actually, I can envision the 1500/ATP rule having an unintended consequence. People looking at a career as an entry-level professional pilot with what amounts to massive costs of entry in terms of education may see the futility of embarking on such a career and decide not to do it. A filtering effect may occur where less than ideal candidates are left. The ATP training may help make sure they are adequate pilots, but it seems unlikely to me the best pilots will stick around for what amounts to a ton of financial punishment. Congress should have addressed the part of the Colgan crash regarding socioeconomics. They should have set up a training forgiveness program like those used by industry and government in fields where fresh people are discouraged by the educational costs and the salary structure will not support high investments. Teachers, nurses, patent examiners are a few jobs that have educational cost forgiveness programs. An educational loan is paid down as long as you do the job. The scheme helps reduce barrier-to-entry for certain professions like these, and regional airline flying may be one that also needs help. Without it you get people who are too dim to calculate how miserable they are going to be on 18,000 a year minus a few that are not in it for the money, who will leave when they get bored.
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