FAA to strengthen pilot training
05-11-2011, 04:13 PM
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FAA to strengthen pilot training
FAA proposes to strengthen airline pilot training
By JOAN LOWY, Associated Press
WASHINGTON – Federal aviation officials proposed the most wide-ranging overhaul of air crew training in decades Wednesday, more than two years after a crash in western New York that was attributed to pilot error.
The Federal Aviation Administration proposal would require airlines to train pilots, flight attendants and flight dispatchers together in real life scenarios in more advanced flight simulators. That includes simulator training for pilots on how to recover from full stall in flight.
The proposal also would require remedial training for pilots with performance deficiencies such as failing a proficiency test or check, or unsatisfactory performance during flight training or a simulator course.
"The difference is that rather than just have a pilot execute a ... skill in isolation, the new training will require a more realistic and coordinated effort by the crew as if they were on a real flight," FAA Administrator Randy Babbitt told reporters. "It will be a lot more lifelike."
Continental Connection Flight 3407 crashed after experiencing an aerodynamic stall — a loss of lift brought on by too little speed — during a landing approach to Buffalo Niagara International Airport in February 2009. The stall caused the plane to plummet to the ground, killing all 49 people aboard and a man in a house below.
The National Transportation Safety Board later determined the flight's pilots failed to monitor the plane's airspeed and thus were surprised when a safety system known as a "stick shaker" activated, alerting them to the impending stall. The captain responded by pulling back on the plane's steering mechanism when the correct action that pilots are trained to take is to push forward to pick up speed.
The plane immediately went into a full stall, triggering the activation of another safety system known as a "stick pusher" because it points a plane's nose downward to pick up speed. The captain again pulled back hard when the proper response would have been to push forward.
Safety investigators estimated that even after the stick pusher had activated, the captain still had seconds to save the flight if he had taken the correct action.
The accident is considered especially noteworthy by aviation experts because of the wide array of systemic safety concerns revealed during the crash investigation, including several involving pilot training. For example, the stick pusher had been described to the captain in classroom training, but it wasn't included in simulator training. The final seconds before the crash may have been that the first time he'd experienced its activation.
The captain had failed at least five key tests of piloting skills during his career, but was allowed to retake each test. Despite his record, the captain wasn't singled out for any remedial or special training by Colgan Air, the regional carrier that operated the flight for Continental Airlines. Colgan said it was unaware of two of the test failures, which occurred prior to the captain's hiring.
FAA proposed updating pilot training requirements a month before the accident. Officials have spent the last two years reshaping the previous plan to reflect issues raised by the Flight 3407 investigation and to meet the requirements of a law passed by Congress in response to the accident.
FAA has "stepped up to the plate big time here," said victims' families spokesman Scott Maurer, whose daughter, Lorin, was killed in the crash. "We're pleased as a family group with the progress these folks have been making."
By JOAN LOWY, Associated Press
WASHINGTON – Federal aviation officials proposed the most wide-ranging overhaul of air crew training in decades Wednesday, more than two years after a crash in western New York that was attributed to pilot error.
The Federal Aviation Administration proposal would require airlines to train pilots, flight attendants and flight dispatchers together in real life scenarios in more advanced flight simulators. That includes simulator training for pilots on how to recover from full stall in flight.
The proposal also would require remedial training for pilots with performance deficiencies such as failing a proficiency test or check, or unsatisfactory performance during flight training or a simulator course.
"The difference is that rather than just have a pilot execute a ... skill in isolation, the new training will require a more realistic and coordinated effort by the crew as if they were on a real flight," FAA Administrator Randy Babbitt told reporters. "It will be a lot more lifelike."
Continental Connection Flight 3407 crashed after experiencing an aerodynamic stall — a loss of lift brought on by too little speed — during a landing approach to Buffalo Niagara International Airport in February 2009. The stall caused the plane to plummet to the ground, killing all 49 people aboard and a man in a house below.
The National Transportation Safety Board later determined the flight's pilots failed to monitor the plane's airspeed and thus were surprised when a safety system known as a "stick shaker" activated, alerting them to the impending stall. The captain responded by pulling back on the plane's steering mechanism when the correct action that pilots are trained to take is to push forward to pick up speed.
The plane immediately went into a full stall, triggering the activation of another safety system known as a "stick pusher" because it points a plane's nose downward to pick up speed. The captain again pulled back hard when the proper response would have been to push forward.
Safety investigators estimated that even after the stick pusher had activated, the captain still had seconds to save the flight if he had taken the correct action.
The accident is considered especially noteworthy by aviation experts because of the wide array of systemic safety concerns revealed during the crash investigation, including several involving pilot training. For example, the stick pusher had been described to the captain in classroom training, but it wasn't included in simulator training. The final seconds before the crash may have been that the first time he'd experienced its activation.
The captain had failed at least five key tests of piloting skills during his career, but was allowed to retake each test. Despite his record, the captain wasn't singled out for any remedial or special training by Colgan Air, the regional carrier that operated the flight for Continental Airlines. Colgan said it was unaware of two of the test failures, which occurred prior to the captain's hiring.
FAA proposed updating pilot training requirements a month before the accident. Officials have spent the last two years reshaping the previous plan to reflect issues raised by the Flight 3407 investigation and to meet the requirements of a law passed by Congress in response to the accident.
FAA has "stepped up to the plate big time here," said victims' families spokesman Scott Maurer, whose daughter, Lorin, was killed in the crash. "We're pleased as a family group with the progress these folks have been making."
05-11-2011, 05:10 PM
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Really??? That's it? That's the best Babbitt and crew can come up with?? Remedial stick pusher training? Talk about missing the forest for the trees. Good for you, Randy. Clearly you have finally realized that the bottom line trumps safety.
Hey, at least ALPA is consistent in that our leadership continues to screw us long after they've moved on to greener pastures...
Hey, at least ALPA is consistent in that our leadership continues to screw us long after they've moved on to greener pastures...
05-11-2011, 05:46 PM
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Originally Posted by iceman49
...The Federal Aviation Administration proposal would require airlines to train pilots, flight attendants and flight dispatchers together in real life scenarios in more advanced flight simulators.
I guess when the FA hears the stick shaker, she'll be trained to yell "PUSH YOU FOOL!!!"
Where will the dispatchers sit in these more advanced flight simulators?
That includes simulator training for pilots on how to recover from full stall in flight.
This statement implies that pilots are not properly trained in stall recovery.
The proposal also would require remedial training for pilots with performance deficiencies such as failing a proficiency test or check, or unsatisfactory performance during flight training or a simulator course.
I thought remedial training was pretty common for busted rides. Maybe I don't understand the meaning of the word "remedial".
"The difference is that rather than just have a pilot execute a ... skill in isolation, the new training will require a more realistic and coordinated effort by the crew as if they were on a real flight," FAA Administrator Randy Babbitt told reporters. "It will be a lot more lifelike."
I guess Babbitt is saying that training failures will be rewarded with the actual death of the offending pilot?
That would protect the flying public and reduce number of 250-hour wonders. Win-win?
...The captain responded by pulling back on the plane's steering mechanism when the correct action that pilots are trained to take is to push forward to pick up speed.
Umm, I've been told I can read, speak, and understand the English language. But now I'm confused. Are pilots trained in stalls or not?
The captain had failed at least five key tests of piloting skills during his career...
Some would say Buffalo brought his count to six.
FAA has "stepped up to the plate big time here," said victims' families spokesman Scott Maurer, whose daughter, Lorin, was killed in the crash. "We're pleased as a family group with the progress these folks have been making."
No comment.
I guess when the FA hears the stick shaker, she'll be trained to yell "PUSH YOU FOOL!!!"
Where will the dispatchers sit in these more advanced flight simulators?
That includes simulator training for pilots on how to recover from full stall in flight.
This statement implies that pilots are not properly trained in stall recovery.
The proposal also would require remedial training for pilots with performance deficiencies such as failing a proficiency test or check, or unsatisfactory performance during flight training or a simulator course.
I thought remedial training was pretty common for busted rides. Maybe I don't understand the meaning of the word "remedial".
"The difference is that rather than just have a pilot execute a ... skill in isolation, the new training will require a more realistic and coordinated effort by the crew as if they were on a real flight," FAA Administrator Randy Babbitt told reporters. "It will be a lot more lifelike."
I guess Babbitt is saying that training failures will be rewarded with the actual death of the offending pilot?
That would protect the flying public and reduce number of 250-hour wonders. Win-win?
...The captain responded by pulling back on the plane's steering mechanism when the correct action that pilots are trained to take is to push forward to pick up speed.
Umm, I've been told I can read, speak, and understand the English language. But now I'm confused. Are pilots trained in stalls or not?
The captain had failed at least five key tests of piloting skills during his career...
Some would say Buffalo brought his count to six.
FAA has "stepped up to the plate big time here," said victims' families spokesman Scott Maurer, whose daughter, Lorin, was killed in the crash. "We're pleased as a family group with the progress these folks have been making."
No comment.
05-11-2011, 06:53 PM
#7
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Originally Posted by etflies
Yep. Dump money into fancy simulators and training people who don't sit at the controls, but lets not touch fatigue and rest issues. Because those aren't important at all.
Training to me is the issue that needs to be addressed but for the life of me I don't see how this helps the situation. In an ideal world the Feds would put so much pressure on in-house training programs so as to ensure they don't pass pilots who are inept and not qualified for the job. But this would require good Feds overseeing every airline and in my past experience that is not always the case.
Sometimes you get POI's who are not competent to fly any airplane much less the ones they're assigned to oversee. Some have poor records of passing while others have bizzare attitudes related to failures. There was a Fed assigned to Coex's 1900D program that thought failing would make a pilot better and failed them for almost no reason at all. When the 1900Ds were parked this Fed went on to fail over and over again in training for the ERJ-145. Any regular new hire would've been fired but he had the opportunity to keep trying until he passed?!? He is probably still in the system somewhere as he has the inherent protections of a government job.
People lament about the 1500 hour rule but to me you can have pilots hired by an airline with 1500 hours and an ATP that should not be touching any airplane much less an airliner. After all every PIC that has pilot error'ed an airliner into the ground had > 1500 hours and an ATP.
The problem rests in training and initial and recurrent quals and the responsibility to ensure that standards are uniformly applied AND met rests squarely in the lap of the FAA. And if this is an indication of where they're headed then it's clear that some of the decision makers are simply not up to the challenge of this industry.
Money is not the solution.
Last edited by forgot to bid; 05-11-2011 at 07:41 PM.
05-11-2011, 07:47 PM
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Posts: 691
Originally Posted by forgot to bid
After all every PIC that has pilot error'ed an airliner into the ground had > 1500 hours and an ATP.
05-11-2011, 07:52 PM
#9
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Posts: 229
Originally Posted by forgot to bid
Maybe the FAA just thinks the more money is spent is indicative of the quality of training? For the life of me, what does a dispatcher have to do with sim training? The type of scenario based training that a dispatcher and a FA should be involved with have nothing to do with the type of training that should be conducted in a simulator. Simulators should be relegated to flight training.
Training to me is the issue that needs to be addressed but for the life of me I don't see how this helps the situation. In an ideal world the Feds would put so much pressure on in-house training programs so as to ensure they don't pass pilots who are inept and not qualified for the job. But this would require good Feds overseeing every airline and in my past experience that is not always the case.
Sometimes you get POI's who are not competent to fly any airplane much less the ones they're assigned to oversee. Some have poor records of passing while others have bizzare attitudes related to failures. There was a Fed assigned to Coex's 1900D program that thought failing would make a pilot better and failed them for almost no reason at all. When the 1900Ds were parked this Fed went on to fail over and over again in training for the ERJ-145. Any regular new hire would've been fired but he had the opportunity to keep trying until he passed?!? He is probably still in the system somewhere as he has the inherent protections of a government job.
People lament about the 1500 hour rule but to me you can have pilots hired by an airline with 1500 hours and an ATP that should not be touching any airplane much less an airliner. After all every PIC that has pilot error'ed an airliner into the ground had > 1500 hours and an ATP.
The problem rests in training and initial and recurrent quals and the responsibility to ensure that standards are uniformly applied AND met rests squarely in the lap of the FAA. And if this is an indication of where they're headed then it's clear that some of the decision makers are simply not up to the challenge of this industry.
Money is not the solution.
Training to me is the issue that needs to be addressed but for the life of me I don't see how this helps the situation. In an ideal world the Feds would put so much pressure on in-house training programs so as to ensure they don't pass pilots who are inept and not qualified for the job. But this would require good Feds overseeing every airline and in my past experience that is not always the case.
Sometimes you get POI's who are not competent to fly any airplane much less the ones they're assigned to oversee. Some have poor records of passing while others have bizzare attitudes related to failures. There was a Fed assigned to Coex's 1900D program that thought failing would make a pilot better and failed them for almost no reason at all. When the 1900Ds were parked this Fed went on to fail over and over again in training for the ERJ-145. Any regular new hire would've been fired but he had the opportunity to keep trying until he passed?!? He is probably still in the system somewhere as he has the inherent protections of a government job.
People lament about the 1500 hour rule but to me you can have pilots hired by an airline with 1500 hours and an ATP that should not be touching any airplane much less an airliner. After all every PIC that has pilot error'ed an airliner into the ground had > 1500 hours and an ATP.
The problem rests in training and initial and recurrent quals and the responsibility to ensure that standards are uniformly applied AND met rests squarely in the lap of the FAA. And if this is an indication of where they're headed then it's clear that some of the decision makers are simply not up to the challenge of this industry.
Money is not the solution.
05-11-2011, 08:33 PM
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Originally Posted by jayray2
Not to rehash this again but I believe the Colgan pilots did not have these times when they were HIRED. That is the whole point. The skills you learn attaining your first 1500 hours outside of an airline environment are your base. If you are hired at 250 hours into an airline environment you don't have this base. That is the theory at least, wrong or right.
The ATP written, checkride or Part 121 combination upgrade/ATP frankly has to be harder.
Originally Posted by jayray2
Is your dog an ESS?
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