An Exhortation To All
11-27-2006, 09:48 PM
#1
Administrator
Thread Starter
Joined APC: May 2006
Position: C-172
Posts: 8,024
An Exhortation To All
There are a lot of posts here full of negativity, frustration and pessimism. Some posts are downright doom and gloom. If a newbie were to take all that to heart, he/she would immediately chuck all dreams and aspirations of being an airline pilot. Is there anything about your profession and job that you like or about which you feel positive?
I know one airline pilot really well. He is a captain at a major airline. He worked hard to get to where he is today. He loves flying and cannot imagine doing anything else. Perhaps he is an outlier or perhaps he just has a different personality type, but I wish everyone on here could be like him once in a while. Have a glass half full attitude. Life is short. There is a place for everyone in this world. Reach for the stars. Ok, ok, enough cliches for one night.
I know one airline pilot really well. He is a captain at a major airline. He worked hard to get to where he is today. He loves flying and cannot imagine doing anything else. Perhaps he is an outlier or perhaps he just has a different personality type, but I wish everyone on here could be like him once in a while. Have a glass half full attitude. Life is short. There is a place for everyone in this world. Reach for the stars. Ok, ok, enough cliches for one night.
11-27-2006, 11:06 PM
#3
Bored
Joined APC: Nov 2006
Position: Grumman Torture Device (weekends only)
Posts: 445
Well,
IMHO, what you are seeing is the frustration caused by people having those dreams, spending much time, money and effort to position themselves for them to find out that the industry has changed on a fundamental level - in essence, it's like being on a football team that uses the west coast offense, getting to the playoffs, only to have the NFL outlaw the forward pass for the rest of the season.
Nothing that hasn't been seen in the steel, telecommunications, textile, data processing, or auto industries. Times change, process get improved and business models evolve. Fact of life. Someday in the future, someone is going to come up with a transportation solution that is better than the way FedEx does it, and the current generation of folks in or striving for that job are going to be hurting. What happened to the great cruise liners of the 1920's and 30's?? What happened to those sailors? Look at how the RJ has changed things... see my post in another forum about how Virgin America could very well be the final nail for the majors.....
So, I would encourage (and I have in a couple of cases) wannabe's here to not see it as negativity, view it as what to expect - if you view the world as the glass if half empty, you aren't disappointed when it is more than 50% full. Dreams are great, I've gotten to fulfill mine by being a Naval Aviator. And now I'm moving on. But if the dream is based on flying the North Atlantic route for 30 hours over 10 days a month and pulling in $300k while shacking up with a hottie stew on the London layover, that isn't going to happen - and I think it's better to know that earlier than later. I hate to see somebody leverage themselves financially for a degree (say a cheap state school at $80k total), the airline prep program at All ATP's after that for $44k in order to fast track to a regional, only to find themselves making $25k a year - and they have to pay all that back and live on that salary. If this is what you want to do because you'll die if you don't get to fly that's fine. If you think you're going to get rich...good luck! If you do the math above, you can't get from point A to B, unless you get one of the 400 jobs a year that there are 10,000 other RJ guys/girls trying to get. Folks need to know that, and it's not advertised anywhere other than here...otherwise All ATP's, ERAU, etc. go out of business quick.
Flying's a great job...it's not that hard, you get paid to sit on your a$$ and their are moments of absolute beauty that are to die for - but the general perception of the pilot life is not real anymore.
Rant off.
Spongebob
IMHO, what you are seeing is the frustration caused by people having those dreams, spending much time, money and effort to position themselves for them to find out that the industry has changed on a fundamental level - in essence, it's like being on a football team that uses the west coast offense, getting to the playoffs, only to have the NFL outlaw the forward pass for the rest of the season.
Nothing that hasn't been seen in the steel, telecommunications, textile, data processing, or auto industries. Times change, process get improved and business models evolve. Fact of life. Someday in the future, someone is going to come up with a transportation solution that is better than the way FedEx does it, and the current generation of folks in or striving for that job are going to be hurting. What happened to the great cruise liners of the 1920's and 30's?? What happened to those sailors? Look at how the RJ has changed things... see my post in another forum about how Virgin America could very well be the final nail for the majors.....
So, I would encourage (and I have in a couple of cases) wannabe's here to not see it as negativity, view it as what to expect - if you view the world as the glass if half empty, you aren't disappointed when it is more than 50% full. Dreams are great, I've gotten to fulfill mine by being a Naval Aviator. And now I'm moving on. But if the dream is based on flying the North Atlantic route for 30 hours over 10 days a month and pulling in $300k while shacking up with a hottie stew on the London layover, that isn't going to happen - and I think it's better to know that earlier than later. I hate to see somebody leverage themselves financially for a degree (say a cheap state school at $80k total), the airline prep program at All ATP's after that for $44k in order to fast track to a regional, only to find themselves making $25k a year - and they have to pay all that back and live on that salary. If this is what you want to do because you'll die if you don't get to fly that's fine. If you think you're going to get rich...good luck! If you do the math above, you can't get from point A to B, unless you get one of the 400 jobs a year that there are 10,000 other RJ guys/girls trying to get. Folks need to know that, and it's not advertised anywhere other than here...otherwise All ATP's, ERAU, etc. go out of business quick.
Flying's a great job...it's not that hard, you get paid to sit on your a$$ and their are moments of absolute beauty that are to die for - but the general perception of the pilot life is not real anymore.
Rant off.
Spongebob
11-28-2006, 05:11 AM
#4
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Jan 2006
Position: 737 Captain
Posts: 777
I have always viewed things in life pretty simply as that's how simpletons operate. In history, it has often been the case that the guy or gal who made a truly amazing discovery or achieved something special were the ones who had not heard from the naysayers how it couldn't be done. They didn't know it was impossible in the minds of 99.9 percent of the people, yet they did it because they hadn't been poisoned with negativity, gloom and pessimism. Don't get me wrong here, aviation does not come without sacrifice and hard work. Anyone who begins the journey not believing so is in for a rude awakening. However, the destination in my opinion is, and has been, worth every second and every dollar invested. The view from the top is awe inspiring and nothing short of magical.
I always saw this career and most things in life in this light: The major airlines or (fill in your own dream job here) will hire X amount of new pilots this or next year. In order to be one of them I will do everything in my power to prepare myself for what they want. I commit to study rather than party, network rather than play video games and love my friends and family as I know there will be times I will need their support. Once you adopt this attitude and lifestyle, you will be amazed at how good things start to happen to you. Take the time every day to appreciate where you are and what you have. Do something nice for someone else every day! As a guy who came from humble beginnings I appreciate every day where I sit to make a living. I adopted this simple, yet effective philosophy and never looked back. I am an average guy who got average grades and have always struggled to make my way. I didn't expect easy, so I was never overly disappointed when it didn't show up.
The airline industry will twist and turn as it always has and we, as employees are along for the ride wherever it takes us. The only steady in the process should be you. A good attitude and a hard working commitment to make yourself and life better will save the day almost always.
I always saw this career and most things in life in this light: The major airlines or (fill in your own dream job here) will hire X amount of new pilots this or next year. In order to be one of them I will do everything in my power to prepare myself for what they want. I commit to study rather than party, network rather than play video games and love my friends and family as I know there will be times I will need their support. Once you adopt this attitude and lifestyle, you will be amazed at how good things start to happen to you. Take the time every day to appreciate where you are and what you have. Do something nice for someone else every day! As a guy who came from humble beginnings I appreciate every day where I sit to make a living. I adopted this simple, yet effective philosophy and never looked back. I am an average guy who got average grades and have always struggled to make my way. I didn't expect easy, so I was never overly disappointed when it didn't show up.
The airline industry will twist and turn as it always has and we, as employees are along for the ride wherever it takes us. The only steady in the process should be you. A good attitude and a hard working commitment to make yourself and life better will save the day almost always.
11-28-2006, 06:14 AM
#5
Che Guevara
Joined APC: Aug 2005
Posts: 6,408
Originally Posted by vagabond
There are a lot of posts here full of negativity, frustration and pessimism. Some posts are downright doom and gloom. If a newbie were to take all that to heart, he/she would immediately chuck all dreams and aspirations of being an airline pilot. Is there anything about your profession and job that you like or about which you feel positive?
I know one airline pilot really well. He is a captain at a major airline. He worked hard to get to where he is today. He loves flying and cannot imagine doing anything else. Perhaps he is an outlier or perhaps he just has a different personality type, but I wish everyone on here could be like him once in a while. Have a glass half full attitude. Life is short. There is a place for everyone in this world. Reach for the stars. Ok, ok, enough cliches for one night.
I know one airline pilot really well. He is a captain at a major airline. He worked hard to get to where he is today. He loves flying and cannot imagine doing anything else. Perhaps he is an outlier or perhaps he just has a different personality type, but I wish everyone on here could be like him once in a while. Have a glass half full attitude. Life is short. There is a place for everyone in this world. Reach for the stars. Ok, ok, enough cliches for one night.
11-28-2006, 06:30 AM
#6
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Oct 2006
Position: Citation II
Posts: 315
Originally Posted by calcapt
I have always viewed things in life pretty simply as that's how simpletons operate. In history, it has often been the case that the guy or gal who made a truly amazing discovery or achieved something special were the ones who had not heard from the naysayers how it couldn't be done. They didn't know it was impossible in the minds of 99.9 percent of the people, yet they did it because they hadn't been poisoned with negativity, gloom and pessimism. Don't get me wrong here, aviation does not come without sacrifice and hard work. Anyone who begins the journey not believing so is in for a rude awakening. However, the destination in my opinion is, and has been, worth every second and every dollar invested. The view from the top is awe inspiring and nothing short of magical.
I always saw this career and most things in life in this light: The major airlines or (fill in your own dream job here) will hire X amount of new pilots this or next year. In order to be one of them I will do everything in my power to prepare myself for what they want. I commit to study rather than party, network rather than play video games and love my friends and family as I know there will be times I will need their support. Once you adopt this attitude and lifestyle, you will be amazed at how good things start to happen to you. Take the time every day to appreciate where you are and what you have. Do something nice for someone else every day! As a guy who came from humble beginnings I appreciate every day where I sit to make a living. I adopted this simple, yet effective philosophy and never looked back. I am an average guy who got average grades and have always struggled to make my way. I didn't expect easy, so I was never overly disappointed when it didn't show up.
The airline industry will twist and turn as it always has and we, as employees are along for the ride wherever it takes us. The only steady in the process should be you. A good attitude and a hard working commitment to make yourself and life better will save the day almost always.
I always saw this career and most things in life in this light: The major airlines or (fill in your own dream job here) will hire X amount of new pilots this or next year. In order to be one of them I will do everything in my power to prepare myself for what they want. I commit to study rather than party, network rather than play video games and love my friends and family as I know there will be times I will need their support. Once you adopt this attitude and lifestyle, you will be amazed at how good things start to happen to you. Take the time every day to appreciate where you are and what you have. Do something nice for someone else every day! As a guy who came from humble beginnings I appreciate every day where I sit to make a living. I adopted this simple, yet effective philosophy and never looked back. I am an average guy who got average grades and have always struggled to make my way. I didn't expect easy, so I was never overly disappointed when it didn't show up.
The airline industry will twist and turn as it always has and we, as employees are along for the ride wherever it takes us. The only steady in the process should be you. A good attitude and a hard working commitment to make yourself and life better will save the day almost always.
Hindsight, as they say, is 20/20. It' easy to look in the rearview mirror and see the mistakes you made. The trick is to not dwell on it and move on. Life is a journey, and should be looked at in the forward view.
11-28-2006, 06:38 AM
#7
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: May 2006
Position: 737 CA
Posts: 2,575
I love my job. Is is perfect? No.
I spent 3500 hours flying GA as an instructor and corporate pilot to get to a regional. I spent 9 years at a regional. I finally got to a major with over 11,000 hours. I'm still in debt. I don't make a lot of money (yet). I don't get the good schedules/destinations. I fly with some Captains that are my age and got a 20+ year head start compared to me. I still love my job. This is what I want to do. I love doing it. I couldn't imagine doing anything else. When people ask me if they should be a pilot for a career, I ask them if they love to fly. Don't do things for the wrong reason. Do what you want to do.
I've flown with many unhappy pilots that aren't making a ton of money; because they WANT to make money. Go make money. If that means a different career then pursue it. I want to fly, so I fly. I'd like to make money, but that is not my motivation in life. The difference is your goal and motivation. Don't turn this into me flying for free or for nothing. I believe we should be paid well as professional pilots and I have fought for that often and will again in 2008. I'm just saying the money is not why I'm doing this. I once said to another pilot in a similair discussion, "I didn't become a pilot to be rich, I became a pilot to fly." He responded, "Well, you succeeded at both." Meaning I'm not rich, and I'm a pilot.
I spent 3500 hours flying GA as an instructor and corporate pilot to get to a regional. I spent 9 years at a regional. I finally got to a major with over 11,000 hours. I'm still in debt. I don't make a lot of money (yet). I don't get the good schedules/destinations. I fly with some Captains that are my age and got a 20+ year head start compared to me. I still love my job. This is what I want to do. I love doing it. I couldn't imagine doing anything else. When people ask me if they should be a pilot for a career, I ask them if they love to fly. Don't do things for the wrong reason. Do what you want to do.
I've flown with many unhappy pilots that aren't making a ton of money; because they WANT to make money. Go make money. If that means a different career then pursue it. I want to fly, so I fly. I'd like to make money, but that is not my motivation in life. The difference is your goal and motivation. Don't turn this into me flying for free or for nothing. I believe we should be paid well as professional pilots and I have fought for that often and will again in 2008. I'm just saying the money is not why I'm doing this. I once said to another pilot in a similair discussion, "I didn't become a pilot to be rich, I became a pilot to fly." He responded, "Well, you succeeded at both." Meaning I'm not rich, and I'm a pilot.
11-28-2006, 07:35 AM
#8
Self Employed.
Joined APC: May 2005
Position: Corporate Pilot
Posts: 7,119
Expectations
There are some pilots flying today who are relict's from 30 years ago when things were better. Senior and Safely insulated from furloughs and most of the losses of the industry they remain mostly unscratched and read the horrors like most others in the news. I am sure they are happy and proclaim the industry to be just and sound. The current generation however has a much different perspective. They are the ones who have taken most of the brunt of the changes made over the last 15 years or so. When my generation started out we had higher expectations than what the career can currently provide. No matter how fun a job is to me it must be able to justify itself in regards to compensation.
In addition I think that happiness and flying varies greatly if one is married with kids or single. As a bored and lonely single person a phone call from crew scheduling is a welcome parole from the cold and lonely one bedroom apartment. What could be better than a hotel room where the towels are clean and you don't have to make the bed. It is even better for the captain since has has the FO as prisoner and can make him into his indentured buddy. Without the forced interaction of the work environment most of these guys would go a week without talking to a single person.
I am sure that when given the true facts most rational people would turn down the opportunity of an aviation career. The numbers don't' add up. In the last decade o two the job has lost so much that it doesnt make sense anymore. Those who are trapped in this reality I am sure are miserable. Soon the airlines will be populated mostly by single people since they are the only ones who can afford to live on the pay and to be gone so much.
In closing; happiness in the airlines varies with expectations. If you expect to be treated well, paid a fair and just wage, enjoy career stability, security and have a compensatory amount of time off then brace yourself to be unhappy and miserable. On the other hand if you are a lonely, meager, avdork whose home is adorned with issues of flying magazine on the coffee table and aircraft posters on the walls then you have found your place in the sun.
SKyHigh
In addition I think that happiness and flying varies greatly if one is married with kids or single. As a bored and lonely single person a phone call from crew scheduling is a welcome parole from the cold and lonely one bedroom apartment. What could be better than a hotel room where the towels are clean and you don't have to make the bed. It is even better for the captain since has has the FO as prisoner and can make him into his indentured buddy. Without the forced interaction of the work environment most of these guys would go a week without talking to a single person.
I am sure that when given the true facts most rational people would turn down the opportunity of an aviation career. The numbers don't' add up. In the last decade o two the job has lost so much that it doesnt make sense anymore. Those who are trapped in this reality I am sure are miserable. Soon the airlines will be populated mostly by single people since they are the only ones who can afford to live on the pay and to be gone so much.
In closing; happiness in the airlines varies with expectations. If you expect to be treated well, paid a fair and just wage, enjoy career stability, security and have a compensatory amount of time off then brace yourself to be unhappy and miserable. On the other hand if you are a lonely, meager, avdork whose home is adorned with issues of flying magazine on the coffee table and aircraft posters on the walls then you have found your place in the sun.
SKyHigh
11-28-2006, 07:43 AM
#9
Self Employed.
Joined APC: May 2005
Position: Corporate Pilot
Posts: 7,119
Denial
Originally Posted by aero550
This sums it up quite nicely. I'd also add that, a person entering into a career with this kind of attitude will present well to prospective employers. You make your own luck, sometimes, and this is exactly how to do it.
Hindsight, as they say, is 20/20. It' easy to look in the rearview mirror and see the mistakes you made. The trick is to not dwell on it and move on. Life is a journey, and should be looked at in the forward view.
Hindsight, as they say, is 20/20. It' easy to look in the rearview mirror and see the mistakes you made. The trick is to not dwell on it and move on. Life is a journey, and should be looked at in the forward view.
SkyHigh
11-28-2006, 07:58 AM
#10
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Jan 2006
Position: 737 Captain
Posts: 777
Sky:
We knew it was only a matter of time until you made your gloom deposit here. I acknowledge that the airline environment today is different than it was yesterday: likewise, tomorrow will surely be different than today. The truth is, it is a dynamic industry that like the ocean has ebbs and tides. A sailor who sails the oceans has to accept both and be able to adapt for that is what defines a great sailor.
The environment that most of us seasoned guys were hired in was different, but not significantly easier. Had I adopted and embraced your advice back in the day when I was clawing myself through the system, I would surely be doing something else as a career. I would be gazing up at airliners as they flew over instead of flying them.
As much as I like you Sky, I am glad that you and this forum weren't around in my more impressionable days.
We knew it was only a matter of time until you made your gloom deposit here. I acknowledge that the airline environment today is different than it was yesterday: likewise, tomorrow will surely be different than today. The truth is, it is a dynamic industry that like the ocean has ebbs and tides. A sailor who sails the oceans has to accept both and be able to adapt for that is what defines a great sailor.
The environment that most of us seasoned guys were hired in was different, but not significantly easier. Had I adopted and embraced your advice back in the day when I was clawing myself through the system, I would surely be doing something else as a career. I would be gazing up at airliners as they flew over instead of flying them.
As much as I like you Sky, I am glad that you and this forum weren't around in my more impressionable days.
