direct to a waypoint
01-22-2007, 01:46 PM
#11
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Sep 2006
Position: Captain
Posts: 310
Originally Posted by Ewfflyer
Maybe you're equipped with a KNS80, good stuff!!! But otherwise, legal and responsible response would be "UNABLE, Could we get a vector or airway?" I don't like the thought of guys floating around w/o proper equipment.
Why? Any more we're always in radar contact unless your WAY out in the boonies. Even then though ususally if you get up to 7-8,000ft your back in radar coverage.
01-22-2007, 03:47 PM
#12
Line Holder
Joined APC: Jan 2007
Position: SAAB driver in training......
Posts: 64
I would call unable and ask for vectors direct to that point. In all circumstances (wx, terrain, etc.) i think this would make the most sense unless youre looking at your enroute chart and can ensure your own obstacle clearances. That could be pretty tricky in the mountains and probably not worth the effort when vectors direct would work just fine..........
01-22-2007, 04:32 PM
#13
Flying Farmer
Joined APC: Jul 2006
Position: Turbo-props' and John Deere's
Posts: 3,160
Originally Posted by RedGuy
Why? Any more we're always in radar contact unless your WAY out in the boonies. Even then though ususally if you get up to 7-8,000ft your back in radar coverage.
Ok, some off-situations that will work
A. Vectors, easy enough(not all controllers have the time to make sure you're on course)
B. Within the Service Volume of a VOR, and you can use your Hand-Held GPS/VFR panel GPS and go direct(Not my op, but another 135 I know of does this)
C. Once again the wonderful VOR/DME/RNAV(eg;KNS80), love these pre-gps era nav's!
01-22-2007, 06:36 PM
#14
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Apr 2006
Position: XL/XLS, FO
Posts: 199
Taken from USAF Publication AFMAN 11–217V1: (Fix-to-Fix)
7.10. Proceeding Direct to a VOR/DME or TACAN Fix. To proceed direct from one fix to another is often required during departures, approaches, or when maneuvering in a terminal area. Bearing and range information from a VOR/DME or TACAN facility is sufficient for navigating direct to any fix
within reception range. The following are some techniques to accomplish a fix-to-fix (Figure 7.13):
7.10.1. Tune. Tune the TACAN or VOR/DME equipment and, if not proceeding in the general direction of the desired fix, turn to a heading approximately halfway between the head of the bearing pointer and radial on which the desired fix is located.
7.10.2. Turn. The objective is to turn in the general direction of the desired fix rather than fly away from the fix while attempting to determine a precise heading.
7.10.2.1. HSI. When using an HSI, the desired radial should be set in the course selector window and the aircraft turned to a heading between the head of the bearing pointer and the head of the course arrow.
7.10.2.2. Initial Turn. The initial turn may be adjusted to roll out on a heading other than halfway between the bearing pointer and the desired fix and present location. If the range must be decreased, roll out on a heading closer to the bearing pointer. To increase the range, roll out on a heading closer to the desired radial.
7.10.3. Visualize. Visualize the aircraft position and the desired fix on the compass card of an RMI or similar instrument. The following factors must be understood when visually establishing the aircraft position and the desired fix on the compass card.
7.10.3.1. Station Location. The station is located at the center of the compass card, and the compass rose simulates the radials around the station.
7.10.3.2. Aircraft Position. The aircraft position is visualized along the reciprocal (radial) of the bearing pointer.
7.10.3.3. Fix. The fix with the greater range is established at the outer edge of the compass card. The fix with the lesser range is visualized at a point that is proportional to the distance represented by the outer edge of the compass card.
7.10.4. Determine Heading. Determine a precise heading from the aircraft position to the desired fix. Determine the heading to the fix by connecting the aircraft position to desired fix with an imaginary line. Establish another line in the same direction, parallel to the original line through the center of the compass card. This will establish a no-wind heading to the desired fix.
7.10.5. Adjust Heading. Adjust aircraft heading as necessary and proceed to the fix.
7.10.5.1. Drift. Apply any known wind drift correction. The effect of wind drift and any inaccuracy of the initial solution may be compensated for by repeating the previous steps while en route. As the aircraft approaches the desired fix, adjust the heading as necessary to intercept the arc or radial or to comply with route clearance beyond the fix.
7.10.5.2. Distance. The distance to the desired fix can be estimated since the distance between the aircraft position and the desired fix is proportionate to the distance established from the center to outer edge of the compass card.
7.10.6. Update. Update heading continuously enroute to refine your solution and correct for winds.
NOTE: The same problem can be easily and more accurately solved on the CPU/26A computer. This is done on the wind face by imagining that the center grommet is the station and applying the same basic techniques as in b, c, and d above.
7.10. Proceeding Direct to a VOR/DME or TACAN Fix. To proceed direct from one fix to another is often required during departures, approaches, or when maneuvering in a terminal area. Bearing and range information from a VOR/DME or TACAN facility is sufficient for navigating direct to any fix
within reception range. The following are some techniques to accomplish a fix-to-fix (Figure 7.13):
7.10.1. Tune. Tune the TACAN or VOR/DME equipment and, if not proceeding in the general direction of the desired fix, turn to a heading approximately halfway between the head of the bearing pointer and radial on which the desired fix is located.
7.10.2. Turn. The objective is to turn in the general direction of the desired fix rather than fly away from the fix while attempting to determine a precise heading.
7.10.2.1. HSI. When using an HSI, the desired radial should be set in the course selector window and the aircraft turned to a heading between the head of the bearing pointer and the head of the course arrow.
7.10.2.2. Initial Turn. The initial turn may be adjusted to roll out on a heading other than halfway between the bearing pointer and the desired fix and present location. If the range must be decreased, roll out on a heading closer to the bearing pointer. To increase the range, roll out on a heading closer to the desired radial.
7.10.3. Visualize. Visualize the aircraft position and the desired fix on the compass card of an RMI or similar instrument. The following factors must be understood when visually establishing the aircraft position and the desired fix on the compass card.
7.10.3.1. Station Location. The station is located at the center of the compass card, and the compass rose simulates the radials around the station.
7.10.3.2. Aircraft Position. The aircraft position is visualized along the reciprocal (radial) of the bearing pointer.
7.10.3.3. Fix. The fix with the greater range is established at the outer edge of the compass card. The fix with the lesser range is visualized at a point that is proportional to the distance represented by the outer edge of the compass card.
7.10.4. Determine Heading. Determine a precise heading from the aircraft position to the desired fix. Determine the heading to the fix by connecting the aircraft position to desired fix with an imaginary line. Establish another line in the same direction, parallel to the original line through the center of the compass card. This will establish a no-wind heading to the desired fix.
7.10.5. Adjust Heading. Adjust aircraft heading as necessary and proceed to the fix.
7.10.5.1. Drift. Apply any known wind drift correction. The effect of wind drift and any inaccuracy of the initial solution may be compensated for by repeating the previous steps while en route. As the aircraft approaches the desired fix, adjust the heading as necessary to intercept the arc or radial or to comply with route clearance beyond the fix.
7.10.5.2. Distance. The distance to the desired fix can be estimated since the distance between the aircraft position and the desired fix is proportionate to the distance established from the center to outer edge of the compass card.
7.10.6. Update. Update heading continuously enroute to refine your solution and correct for winds.
NOTE: The same problem can be easily and more accurately solved on the CPU/26A computer. This is done on the wind face by imagining that the center grommet is the station and applying the same basic techniques as in b, c, and d above.
01-22-2007, 09:03 PM
#16
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Nov 2005
Position: AA A320
Posts: 1,624
Originally Posted by EvilGN
isn't this a point to point?
ie: we are on the 180 radial 30 DME and are given a clearance to point ABCDE that is on the 090 radial at 50 DME, you point your A/C in a general ENE direction and then refine by looking at your HSI/CDI. Some know it as the pencil method....
ie: we are on the 180 radial 30 DME and are given a clearance to point ABCDE that is on the 090 radial at 50 DME, you point your A/C in a general ENE direction and then refine by looking at your HSI/CDI. Some know it as the pencil method....
You are defining INTERSECTIONS, not all intersections are waypoints. Waypoint is an RNAV term.
01-23-2007, 03:35 AM
#19
Gets Weekends Off
Thread Starter
Joined APC: Apr 2005
Position: Glass
Posts: 254
ok.. so here is what happened...
i was in CT airspace controlled by Bradley on my way to TEB. I was given the intersection (which i later found out i would have most likely been holding at like several other planes) while on V3 off the Hartford VOR. The intersection is off of the Bridgeport VOR 288R and is defined by both the BDR and Carmel VORs. Due to volume, the vectors i asked for werent given, to which i asked for a deviation direct BDR VOR, which was.
My purpose for this (by the way, this happens often on the edge of NY airspace to the north) is that I would be flying direct to the station and then fly outbound to the Intersection. This way i would be able to get to the VOR no problem and hence find the intersection without further issue. As far as vectors, once you are about 25 DME from BDL and headed south, its almost a waste to ask for them. It is almost as if the BDL controllers are afraid of big bad NY.
i was in CT airspace controlled by Bradley on my way to TEB. I was given the intersection (which i later found out i would have most likely been holding at like several other planes) while on V3 off the Hartford VOR. The intersection is off of the Bridgeport VOR 288R and is defined by both the BDR and Carmel VORs. Due to volume, the vectors i asked for werent given, to which i asked for a deviation direct BDR VOR, which was.
My purpose for this (by the way, this happens often on the edge of NY airspace to the north) is that I would be flying direct to the station and then fly outbound to the Intersection. This way i would be able to get to the VOR no problem and hence find the intersection without further issue. As far as vectors, once you are about 25 DME from BDL and headed south, its almost a waste to ask for them. It is almost as if the BDL controllers are afraid of big bad NY.
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