BusyB

Hi Guys,
Hit this post by accident and having read through I have a little advice. Given the choice Emirates is now only good for DEC's, if you are prepared to work as F/O CX Freighters is a better bet. If you're younger CX S/O is worth considering.
Good Luck.

remlap

Typhoon,

I attended the road show in ATL and have a few questions. Are the schedules/rosters based on a 35 day period as opposed to the 30/31 day month I am used to?

I have heard the rosters are built to 85-100+ hours per month. If you call in fatigued are there any consequences?

What are the work patterns, 3 on 4 off, 2 on 3 off, etc?

I do not live to fly or to layover. I enjoy my time at home. Is this possible at EK for a new DEC with current manpower shortage?

Thanks

Remlap

Typhoonpilot

Schedules go by the calendar month. In the past ( on the 777 ) they have been built right around 80 hours with the occasional one up to 90. In the future, and especially as we start more long haul, they will be built higher.

There is no set work pattern. You could have one month that comprised three trips total ( two 9 day pairings and one 2 day pairing ) or you could have almost all day flights. Generally it is a something between those extremes. Most Europe trips take 3 scheduled days, although you get back just after midnight on the 2nd day. Most Asian trips take 3 to 5 days, with the longer Australian trips up to 9 days.

The EK pilots will be worked hard with the rapid delivery schedule and shortage of pilots. This year is probably going to be pretty bad. Fatigue issues are real. The only protections you have are the Flight and Duty Time Limitations which, thankfully, are far better than the FARs. You can call in sick if you are too fatigued to fly.

One of the saving graces for fatigue issues is that they have controlled rest on the flight deck. It's not the best rest you'll ever get but it is nice to have a legal way to take a nap while flying.

One thing to look out for when asking people how many days off they have in Dubai on an average month is the difference between days off and rest days. Rest days are days before an early AM departure ( typically 0200-0330 ). They are also days after a late return ( typically 0030 to 0130 ). Being a glass half full guy I tend to count those as days off because I have almost the full day in Dubai with my family and friends. The minimum requirement is for 8 days off in each consecutive 28 day period, not including rest days.

Your last question is difficult to answer. I would say that new DECs will fly right up to the 900 hour limit for the next couple of years.


TP

Gillegan

TP is partially right regarding the 8 days off per month. That may be reduced to 6 but you must average 8 days per month over a 3 month period. This month I'll have the minimum of 6. As far as the quality of rest days, lately I've needed them to recover. 777 guys flying 80 hours a month is a thing of the past. We are officially short of crews and can expect to be flying close to the limit of 100 hours in 28 days.

TP is a good friend of mine and I'm glad that the EK experience has been a positive one for him but a word of caution - not everyone can expect the same type of experience. TP lucked out with a quick upgrade, good accommodation and is not yet paying for schooling (I spend on average $13,000 per year out of my pocket to make up the difference on what the company pays to send my 2 children to the American School. I am also fairly senior and have access to company owned seats at the school. A junior pilot may have to pay an additional $2700 per child per year as the company has a limited number of seats at the American School - that is if you want to send your kids to the American School - getting spots in schools can be a problem ) Right now, TP is a junior training captain who is just doing line training. That is probably the best job in the training department but his rosters are not indicative of the average line pilot and the rosters he had when he was a line pilot are a thing of the past.

To guys thinking of coming here, the best advice that I could give would be to acknowledge the negatives as well as the positives and weigh them up for themselves. There are a lot of negatives but some positive as well. If after all that, it is still a good deal for you then you probably won't be disappointed. Emirates does a pretty good sales job. I see two types of guys when they join. The first group is the one that sees only the big new airplanes, grand plans, quick upgrades and all the hype. They accept the Emirates sales pitch at face value and are very gung ho. I call them the Kool Aid drinkers. After a year, they are usually very disillusioned and negative. The second group makes it a point to educate themselves on both the negative and positive aspects of the job and makes their decision with their eyes open. They know what the problems are with this job and for them it still makes sense. They usually have more reasonable expectations and tend to be happier after their first year.

All the guys on PPRUNE who are complaining are not wankers and their complaints are legitimate. With a move like this, a bad experience with training, accommodation or finding a school for your kids could really sour the whole thing so be very aware of what you are getting into and do your homework.

Typhoonpilot

Gillegan offers sound advice. He is one of the smartest people I know and when he posts it is always well thought out and accurate.

I disagree with the Pprune posters. Some offer information that is relavent to making a decision to join EK or not, but there are some who have an agenda. That agenda is to keep people away from Emirates in hopes that it will force the company to raise pay and conditions. While I don't totally disagree with that tactic, I don't condone it and I think there could be a backlash, i.e. the 777 freighters going to Atlas instead of being flown by EK pilots. Those who read Pprune can see that I'm in a little bit of a fight because of my postings here and elsewhere. Some of those posters ( you can decide if they are wankers or not ) have actually chased down my posts by doing a Google search for my username and then cut and pasted stuff onto PPrune to attack me there. How sad is that ?

In my opinion there are three legitimate complaints about EK on Pprune. They are: 1) The decision to hire DECs thus causing a breakdown of the seniority system and difficulty for current F.O.s in predicting upgrades. 2) The change to the pay and credit system that has effectively caused us to work harder for the same or less money. 3) Fatigue issues caused by rostering practices, especially on the A330/340.

The rest of the whining and moaning about Dubai needs to be taken in perspective. EK have no control over traffic in Dubai nor do they have control over the rate of inflation or crime. Dubai compares favorably against many cities and many countries for lifestyle. What makes front page news for crime in Dubai wouldn't even be mentioned in most U.S. newspapers because it happens all the time in the States. When that sniper was loose in the D.C. area a few years ago I had people from the States asking me if I felt safe in Dubai

The bottom line is that you have to do as Gillegan says to make sure that you have all the information and that the move is right FOR YOU. For some the answer will be no, for others it will be yes. I'll be here to answer questions and provide information in as clear and unbiased a manner as possible. It is my view and it is my perspective and it shouldn't be taken alone. I doubt many here would do that anyway, as pilots we will get information from many sources and then make the best decision we can based on that.

In regards to the first two complaints, they are already known so anybody joining today or within the last year can not legitimately make those complaints. That really only leaves the last as an issue. Certainly there are other issues that people will choose to complain about, one that springs to mind is the lack of Union representation ( but more precisely a backstop for management punishment/decisions ). For those who have ANY experience in the expat world that is the case at every airline overseas, just ask the Cathay 49ers or the pilots from Korean who don't have their contracts renewed. The SQ A310 Captains who were let go during SARs would be yet another example.


Typhoonpilot

iluvetops

TP

How do you feel about me and many others getting shafted by HR regarding upgrade?!! BS does go on here in EK and I don't consider myself as a whiner.

What EK have done to me and others are completely unacceptable.

Freight Dog

I've opened up a "Emirates Part 2" thread to keep one from getting any longer.

Forum Administrator

nwabusdriver

Pour the coffee...