MAXjetPilot767

Again, they were talked to directly to by their superiors as well and given a chance to correct their actions. Actually they were given quite a lot of time and a chance for correction.

One of the indivduals was initial cadre and one was not. The other individual elected to resign. As intital cadre they did take part in the proving runs and table tops. The manuals and processes were established by the first group of pilots hired. Again it is sad that they are no longer at MAXjet but it was by their choosing ultimately.

We could debate ad nauseum whether certain behaviour warrants termination. I would venture to say that most would say tardiness, missing a trip, and abuse of sick leave, even bending metal(depending on circumstances) among others are all action that are correctable. I would think anyone would say blatant insubordination, or out right disrepect of one's supervisor is not tolerable, especially when such behavior is conducted publically. There is a deeper seeded issue there and any disciplinary action short of termination would likely only create more headaches and for a more protracted period of time. That kind of behavior would dealt with at any legacy and likely in a more swift manner and with no chance to coorect it.

It's funny you mention previous career and military rank, because I am guessing some of the details you haven't heard is that several Captains with similar backgrounds, were as everyone saddened to see the result, but were not suprised to see it coming, understood it and have offered public support of the decision. The support was offered with out solicitation and sadly because some of the situation was made so transparent by the individuals no longer at MAXjet. Unfortunately the individuals you are attacking were advocates unbeknownst of the individuals in question for a very long time. Not because they thought the individuals in question were acting in an appropriate manner or condoned some of thier actions, but because they are very decent people. Couple that with the fact that the individuals were talked to and given opportunity to change and that can only go so far. At some point for the sake of a company, an organized structure, and the attitude and morale of other employees, action has to be taken. It has to as well as to maintain your own credibility with your employees and other management structure within the company. Personnel decisions at some point do become more that just the purview of flight operations. These things are never to be taken lightly, or done in a knee jerk manner, or should any joy ever be taken in this kind out of outcome and I can assure you that was not the case at MAXjet.

Skyone

Reasonable response. Good luck.

max767capt

I was the last guy fired. I was intial cadre and I did not resign. I was let go because I wouldn't apoligize for resigning from the LCA program in protest to the first 2 firings. That's all I did; I was let go even after volunteering to be Chief Pilot when they needed me back last summer. Short memory, huh

MAXjetPilot767

Would it be acceptable if the resignation from the LCA program took place via email and by design was copied to a large portion of the airline and the truth was misrepresented about the firings of the two pilots and pubically impugned the integrity of several superiors? Would not any offer of leniency be considered above and beyond?

If you took a poll, it is likely that a large majority would consider it an extreme act of benevolence to afford one the ability to stay at any company after such an action. Being allowed to stay conditional on a subsquent public act of contrition is more than fair and more than one would expect. An offer which was considered fair by standards of peers which more than one stated. It is fair to say that a similar act at a previous employer would have brought immediate termination and no offer of leniancy would have been given or expected. It's doubtful there is a carrier legacy or non that would not treat that behavior with the utmost seriousness. Since continued employment was conditional on being responsible for one's own actions and the offer not accepted, I would consider it leaving by choice. It is sad that anyone with invested effort is not a long for the entire ride but sometimes and by one's own choices it is unavoidable.

Skyone

Wow. Let's see Maxi, you said that all involved were couciled by their peers. It looks like their wasn't any counciling in the number 3 firing. Apologize or be banished. No sir, a class organization would have taken that individual and turned a bad situation into a positive. By demanding a public apology for whatever, just to me shows the smallness of those doing the firings. Again, no stealing, no bent metal, no FOM/SOP violation, no lying. Just egos hurt. Ok, maybe some disrespect. You might convinve me (I doubt it) that what the 3 did was wrong and maybe inappropriate, but not worthy of a massacre. So $50,000 worth of training, levels of experience second to none, lives possibly ruined because of WORDS. Give me a break. I will stand by what I said originally, it is a sick situation and good luck to you, with the two Tims in charge. I can't recall ever hearing of such an outragous firing in any organization I have ever been associated with. Think back, have you?
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MAXjetPilot767

Hey, don't take my word for it. Another of the initial cadre, with a similar background and in front of a large group of pilots, said if he was the DO, he would have done the same thing. Not a single pilot disagreed including those there who were former colleagues of the individuals at a previous airline. My guess he has even more expereinced than you and the pilots no longer at MAXjet but I guess he along with those listening are sick in judgement as well.

Actually, I can't recall anyone publically impugning the integrity of the DO or Dir of Human Resources at any company I have worked for, or trying to drag the CEO into petty drama. I wonder why that is? I can tell you how that would have been handled at my previous legacy employer and it wouldn't have been pretty. My guess is my employment would have ended with or without the option of taking responsibility for my comduct. I guess people from my past exeriences are more shcooled in professional decorum and have a little more respect for authourity and the organization they work for, or as you suggest maybe I am probably just to inexperienced to know. I am sure you expereince and attidue is valued at your employer. Best of Luck.

Skyone

[QUOTE=MAXjetPilot767]Hey, don't take my word for it. Another of the initial cadre, with a similar background and in front of a large group of pilots, said if he was the DO, he would have done the same thing. Not a single pilot disagreed including those there who were former colleagues of the individuals at a previous airline. My guess he has even more expereinced than you and the pilots no longer at MAXjet but I guess he along with those listening are sick in judgement as well.

.[/QUOTE]

Well, what would you expect? Someone else standing up for the three guys gone? I don't think so. Look, in my opinion, it's human nature to watch out for one's self. What would have been gained, after watching the firings, to stand up and defend those guys. They were gone. That's my point all along. Whether or not you agree that the Tims' response was appropriate or not, the fact is, now everyone will keep their mouths' shut. Sure, they will attempt to say that we still encourage open communication and criticism when appropriate, but in reality, I know if I were there (and I'm not), I would keep my mouth shut, not contribute, not speak out in any way fashion or form. And finally, a saying I just ran across is brings this home, "you never saw a fish mounted on a wall with its mouth shut".

Ok, I am sure you are as tired of this thread as I. Guys got fired for reasons I will never really know. So why comment on it anymore, other than to say. If anyone is thinking of going to work there, remember this incident. Maybe some good will come out of it, can you think of any........I'm out.
S1